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216: Beyond Mars and Venus with John Gray

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, we’re talking with John Gray about Beyond Mars and Venus and what he’s been up to since his last time on The Couples Therapist Couch. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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  • Show Notes
  • The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
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The Couples Therapist Couch 216: Beyond Mars and Venus with John Gray

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Learn more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

In this episode, Shane talks with John Gray about Beyond Mars and Venus and what he’s been up to since his last time on The Couples Therapist Couch. John is one of the most well-known relationship experts of the past 40 years and also wrote the iconic bestseller, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. Hear how to keep your libido at any age, why partners lose interest in sex, how to keep that spark as a married couple, why grief is actually addictive, and what he learned from his wife’s passing.

This episode covers everything from sex to grief. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • What has John been up to recently?
  • How does couples therapy impact couples' feelings on sex?
  • What's the impact of estrogen and testosterone?
  • How is John's libido?
  • What is oxytocin?
  • How do pheromones work?
  • Can you treat Dementia and Alzheimer's?
  • How is dopamine tied to sex?
  • To learn more about John and his coaching, visit MarsVenusCoaching.com

Check out John’s book, Beyond Mars and Venus

You can also listen to John on Episode 43 of The Couples Therapist Couch: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/blog/043-beyond-mars-and-venus-with-john-gray

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

 

 

 Show Notes

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
Just like if you take mushrooms, you're gonna go into an altered state, subtle side of mushrooms. If you take ayahuasca, you're gonna go in an altered state. Well, if you have sex with someone you don't really know, you'll go into an altered state.

00:15
Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now your host, Shane Burkle. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in.

00:39
I'm a licensed therapist and my goal is to bring you the latest and most up to date information in the world of couples therapy. I'm really excited to share with you the episode that we have for today. I was able to speak with John Gray, who's the author of Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus. I actually had him on the podcast a few years ago after he wrote his new book, which is called Beyond Mars and Venus.

01:06
If you enjoy the conversation that we had here today, you can go back to episode number 43 and listen to that. He talks a lot about Beyond Mars and Venus in our episode today. A lot of interesting stuff. He's a really good teacher. He's been in the field for over 40 years, and obviously a leader in the field for over 40 years. He has a lot of interesting stuff to say. I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I do.

01:34
Definitely go check out thec and join the Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group as well. But without further introduction, here's the interview with John Gray. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with John Gray, one of the most prominent relationship experts of the last 40 years and author of Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. Hey John, welcome to the show.

02:03
I'm really happy to be with you again. Yeah. Good to see you again. I can't believe it's been since all the way back in 2018 was the last time we spoke and that was episode number 43. If people want to go back and listen to that as well. But why don't you tell everyone what you've been up to the last few years? Uh, well, my wife has died. This is a very sad story. I'm so sorry. Um, uh, we were married for 33 years and, um, I spent a couple of years grieving.

02:32
which was really a healing process for me. Then after about three years, I got married and I'm happily married now. Congratulations. Since that time, I've focused on a lot of the foundation work I did before. But during the lockdown, there were so many difficulties with people spending so much time together. Right. I developed a series of, I'm calling them Biohacks.

03:02
for lasting love and happy relationships, actually for longevity as well. Being in my seventies, my libido has never gone down and in a monogamous relationship, which is kind of not that common. My friends in my age group in the seventies, they're not interested in sex at all. A lot of them got divorced even.

03:26
You know, what I see is that not that I want to focus just on this, but what I've seen is when couples are spending too much time together, which was what happened during the lockdown. And particularly if men are out of work and they're spending time together with their spouses, it's a recipe for disaster. And it was a disaster, increased divorce, increased violence, increased distrust, all kinds of big problems would come up for many people. And part of it was,

03:56
and even from my clients and people will call me and so forth. It was really they need to have more distance and they needed more sex, okay? Where the woman was wanting sex just as much as the man. You know, typically at a younger age, men want more sex and then as they get older, men seem to, and at least in marriage, have less interest in sex. And that's when women often will pick up and say, I want more.

04:25
But in my analysis of women wanting more, it's they're remembering feeling desired. And they want to feel desired. Although for many men, and they're up to 40, so to speak, they're the ones who are feeling rejected, wanting more sex. And certainly one of the reasons why men lose interest in sex with their spouses, and there's many reasons, is repeated rejection. It's very hard to...

04:52
to stay interested in doing something when you get rejected over and over. And I think for men, sexual rejection is probably the most vulnerable place we have. And for women, the most vulnerable place is when they talk about their feelings, they talk about what's inside, they talk about their emotional needs in a relationship and their physical needs. And when those are not happening, it's very hard for her to be in the mood to have sex. So what I've done is help couples understand that

05:21
particularly when it comes to biological sex, your biology is a major part of it. And that for a man to be interested in having sex with his wife, his testosterone needs to be much higher in her presence instead of going down in his presence. And what we see biologically, as men get older, there's a decreasing amount of testosterone. Now this is, I don't think it's necessary, but it is.

05:50
the research shows it's the average. Okay, so every year there's research, big studies showing that on average, men's testosterone goes down 1% every year. That's not a great thing. Now, I don't think I'm some amazing biology. I just have good relationship skills and biohacks. And I'm in my seventies and my testosterone is 50% higher than when I was a young man. My libido is much higher than it was when I was a young guy.

06:19
My self-esteem is higher, my ability to listen to my wife, my ability to be romantic, my ability to be motivated. You know, these are things that when I was younger, I'd have spurts of that. This is your typical male. In the beginning, we have a lot, because see, a lot of affection and warmth and interest in our partners, and it sort of settles down, and then we get horny and it spurts back up, and then we get horny and it spurts back up. And then we're wanting

06:49
to have sex and then our partners are not that excited about having sex with us. And many cases are not even enjoying sex, but just doing it to placate their partners. That just death to a man's testosterone levels. Biologically, we need biological messages, pheromones. Our bodies are communicating all the time with pheromones. When a woman is interested in having sex, her pheromone levels will increase.

07:15
as our estrogen goes higher, that's what we know to be the case, estrogen going higher in a woman, typically about 20 times higher than a man's estrogen levels. Okay, so when a woman's estrogen levels are 20 times higher, now what's gonna happen is that's gonna send out these pheromones, and men have a little nose, and women have a nose too, to detect pheromones, a man's pheromones. But this little flap in the nose evidently has a direct line to...

07:43
down south to produce testosterone. There's no other time a man's testosterone levels are gonna surge as when he has an erection. Every morning a man should have erection. That's just biological rhythm. As he gets older, if it stops, it means he has health problems. He's not gonna live so long. That's why I'm talking about health and sex and longevity, sex, love and longevity. All interconnected. It's all interconnected. And...

08:12
There's so many obstacles in our modern world for couples to continue having intimate sex. In the past, a culture, you know, when women were dependent on men and a man could actually be worthy of her depending, he respected her and he could provide money. If a woman needs money because society didn't give her jobs, and I'm not saying society, we should go back in time, everybody should know that, but I'm just describing why people didn't have such a shortage of sex in the past.

08:41
Okay, so I mean, the only in some cultures, the only justification for divorce is that the woman wasn't interested in sex. Okay, so that that is in itself implies that in the past, women would be interested in sex. So what we have to recognize is in marriage today, very commonly women lose interested in having sex with their partners, I would say, in my years of counseling and whatever,

09:10
You can look at it, well, they start having arguments, they start feeling unhappy, they start feeling rejected, and that causes the reason for divorce in many cases. But if you go back before that, they weren't having great loving sex, okay, mutually fulfilling sex, which I call making love. They weren't making love on a regular basis. Making love is so, so important. You know, I talk about our love tanks, our love bank, and you know, every time I make love to my wife, my love bank is filled up.

09:40
But for her, in order for her to want to have sex, her love bank has to be filled up. So my job is as a man to understand biohacks. And a hack is you hack into a computer where you can hack into your partner's biology by doing certain things. Now most therapists, counselors know that what we do a lot is to have couples talk and share. And 90% of the people who go

10:09
to counselors are women. When there's big problems, men will come along, but bottom line, women are the ones who fuel that industry because instinctively, they get so much more benefit from talking about their feelings. Now, when you talk about your feelings, what happens is estrogen levels go up. Estrogen is anytime you're depending on something outside yourself or someone outside yourself.

10:39
to fulfill a need, whether it be a physical need, like what is romance, but providing, taking one part of romance, which is a biohack, is a man plans a date, she didn't have to do it. It's something she could do, but she doesn't have to do. Anytime you do something for a woman that she could do that she doesn't have to do, you produce more estrogen. You know, this is opening the car door. This is all common sense when you analyze it. I've just spent 50 years analyzing it.

11:08
and then figuring out these biohacks. But if you look at the traditional romantic gestures, opening the car door for your wife, you're going on a date. Now, if we're just not going on a date for romance, then we have our non-romantic moments where I rush to the car and she goes to her door and that's fine. But on a romantic date, the objective there is to create more estrogen. Now, why do I say that? Because people understanding hormones before...

11:37
Everyone figured out that if you open the car door for a woman, she's going to feel more special. She's going to feel special. And when she feels special, like someone is thinking of her, someone is caring about her, someone is prioritizing her, someone wants to help her, that produces estrogen. Estrogen goes high. And now we know biologically, then a woman when her estrogen levels go to a very high level around doubling.

12:07
her healthy estrogen levels, her healthy estrogen levels tend to be in a range of 10 times higher than a man's. Just understand that. And so whenever you're, you know, some women are overeating all the time because their estrogen levels are low. And we'll explore why estrogen levels go low. But if her estrogen levels are low, depending on food to feel good, you know, we do depend on food to feel good. But if we don't have other things to depend on to feel good, if you're a woman.

12:35
then you'll just focus on food. It's easily available for you. So you just depend on food and that makes you feel good. And then, but it's too much, just you shouldn't eat that much food. So you get overweight women. That's one of the reasons. Now you could say another thing is, well, she's stressed and she's emotionally eating. It's the same thing I'm saying here is that when you're, if you're getting your emotional needs through food, you're now.

13:00
biologically increasing your estrogen levels. And when women's estrogen levels go up, their stress levels go down. This is called emotional eating. Well, what is emotional eating? It also can be therapy. You go to a therapist and you get an emotional need met through the therapist, but by being heard. When you share feelings, when someone cares enough to understand what's going on inside of you without judgment, you know, without thinking negatively of you.

13:29
without being put upon by you, estrogen goes up. And when estrogen goes up, stress goes down. Now, why would that be the case? Well, we did a flip logic. Whenever, whenever women are stressed, they're producing stress hormones. Again, we're back to biohacking the hormone, the hormone of cortisol. So when women is producing cortisol, you look at what's going on with their hormones. Either...

13:57
Her hormones are, her estrogen is extremely low and her testosterone levels are higher, are higher than normal, okay? So think about why that would be. If estrogen is depending on others and you feel that nobody is there for me, I don't have support in my life, I'm all by myself, I can't depend on anybody, well then you can't be generating a lot of estrogen. So...

14:26
you then feel, oh, well then I have to take care of myself. I can do that and I can solve my problems. I can make money, I can feed myself. I can go find somebody to be in a relationship with. So she's not pursuing men, but those men are never attracted to her after having sex. They are just, you know, this is the story over and over. Women who do one night stands, the guy's happy, but why doesn't he call back? That was a big, big thing back in the nineties. You know, this is where women were very loose in terms of...

14:54
feeling free to be masculine and pursue sex. Okay, so when a woman doesn't feel she can get what she needs, she goes to her male side. And that's very easy for women. See, the challenge for women is to find your female side. You know, you're a biological female. You have to learn how to support your hormones that would allow you to make a baby. It's just simple common sense once you understand the hormonal system in a woman, which is...

15:22
to a certain extent from an evolutionary point of view, if you're born as a woman with the potential to make a baby, so nature gives you all these rewards for at least producing the hormones that would allow you to make a baby, whether you choose to or not, you can make those hormones. A woman is not like an animal who can only enjoy sex or have sex, have desire to be penetrated, which we can say is the desire to have sex from a woman's point of view.

15:49
In a monkey, for example, that only happens when they're in heat. In a dog, that only happens when they're in heat. So they can't have sex at other times. So they don't want sex at other times. Well, women can want sex almost every day, except during her period. And even then she could want it, but maybe not the best time. With the, the, um, that desire to have sex, if her estrogen levels in the presence of a man can double them, just as if she was ovulating as that estrogen goes up.

16:18
then her testosterone will balance it. See, we're looking at balancing the male-female hormones. Then that's called time to make love. So, you know, in my own experience, I make love when my wife is in town, she does travel a bit, but, and sometimes I travel and that's fine. I'm not addicted to sex at all. I don't have to have sex at all. But it's kind of like, if you have enough money in your life, you pay all your bills, but then you can go out and make extra money, that feels really good. Okay, that's what making love is.

16:48
charging it up, but when she's here, have sex almost every day, except during the period time. It's just, she wants it, I want it, I can perform, my gosh, what a great life. Now, when we had children, we didn't have time for that, and also we were making other hormones at that time. But once your children grow, retire, not that I'm retired, but over the age of raising your children, it's the best time of life. Relationships can be the very best. You can have the best making love.

17:17
ever. And you can live long, healthy life. You know, sicknesses can go away in many cases, because the research shows that married couples live longer than single people. This is about longevity, this is about health and health. Married couples have less sickness and disease than single people or gay people. You know, this is the reality. We just have to look at the statistics of the magic.

17:45
of people who want to be in a heterosexual relationship or can have a heterosexual relationship. It's like some people can lift heavy weights, some people can be great accountants, some people can be rock stars, not everybody can be a rock star. But hey, if you're a heterosexual, you've got all these benefits which you can benefit from. I'm just talking about them. If you want, gay relationships, fantastic. People can have harmony when it's two women. You don't have this...

18:11
obstacle to overcome, which is trying to understand the opposite sex and being misinterpreted all the time by the opposite sex. If you just look at statistics-wise, when you have same sex, you have more of a potential for more harmony. Although records show there's just as much violence in all different types of relationships, there's not much difference. We don't have statistics on married gay people yet because they haven't been officially...

18:39
married. We'll see what happens. So that's not my expertise. I'm just, people like to ask me, well, what about gay couples? I said, hey, it's your choice. You want to be gay couples. You want to be gay partner. Okay. It's your choice or it's your biological destiny. However, you want to look at it. That's not my expertise. My expertise is heterosexual relationships because you have the potential to experience better making love the rest of your life and living longer and healthier.

19:09
If you had to develop that potential, our culture, to various degrees, supported that. Our culture doesn't support that now, and I'll explain the difference from that. And then I'll explain a new culture that can support that. But the old culture, men, women could not, women didn't have birth control. Okay, so you're going to have babies, you know, couples get together, they have sex desire, romance is there, it's all biological. Why is it biological?

19:38
Just like if you take mushrooms, you're gonna go into an altered state, subtle side of mushrooms. If you take ayahuasca, you're gonna go in an altered state. Well, if you have sex with someone you don't really know, you'll go into an altered state. And that's why couples fall in love. They're kind of in an altered state. They're in a state of the newness of a relationship, these nakedness in a relationship, some kind of biological chemical interaction with the pheromones and whatever.

20:09
With that, you get to have an altered state of high dopamine levels for men, which motivates men. And what not only motivates men, but when dopamine goes up, it increases men's testosterone levels. It will shoot up your testosterone levels. And for women, the newness of a relationship will shoot up your estrogen levels. And if she's suddenly falling in love with this guys, because their estrogen levels double, we know that when it doubles in women.

20:38
We don't have a lot of research showing that when a man is turned on, that his testosterone levels go up. Although every man is one of the symptoms of testosterone and dopamine together is motivation. And I don't think there's anything more motivating for men than to go have sex, at least when he's healthy and not just getting old. And that's, that's what does happen to men. Okay. I've got, I, a lot of my couples, I have to help reawaken their sex drive with understanding.

21:08
the way you can continue feeling sex desire for each other. Because it's inevitable with the newness of life, with newness of a relationship, you will stimulate high testosterone in men, high estrogen in women, that creates a polarity. That polarity is what creates the magnetic attraction, like a positive pole and a negative pole. So he's the thumb and she's the hole and they go together. And in the beginning, there's so much polarity, it's like this drug trip.

21:38
that he could be way over here and she's over here and he just wants to get in there. But once you're living together, the polarity, you don't have that distance, that's one part. So I think for me, besides everything I teach and know about men and women, with my wife of 34 years and before that, we were together six years before that, the polarity was maintained because we did unknowing a lot of these biohacks, but.

22:05
The other side of it is one biohack is making sure that you're not together all the time. Very, very important. You know, the whole idea of men going on the hunt and women staying and taking care of the children, the village and attending to all that, depending on other women for support while the men were away. Very, very important. Today, you know, women are so busy working that they don't have that non-working aspect of cooperating and collaborating without money involved. As soon as money's involved.

22:35
It's testosterone. Accept your goal, achieve your goal. You do things you have to do. That produces testosterone. That's why during the lockdown, so much violence is that when men don't have a job, you see what we depend upon as men, our female side has depending too, but we have to earn it. So I work hard, I do a job, and then someone appreciates me. I depend on that reward. Now my.

23:02
Female side is supported. So I find some kind of balance within myself. We're all always looking for balance because we are masculine, we are feminine. Everybody has both those sides. It's just that when we're under stress, men tend to go too far to their female side. Like for example, when a man is angry, everybody thinks, oh, he's high testosterone. Well, he may have high testosterone when he's feeling successful, but when he's not feeling successful, his testosterone goes down.

23:30
and his estrogen goes up, he now becomes depending on other people to boost him up as opposed to, you know, you've got your job, you know what, like you counsel a couple and they're getting better, you feel great, look what I did, look what I did, I helped him do this, I helped him do this. If a man doesn't have a place where he feels successful making a difference with someone, his testosterone will go down and when his testosterone goes down and he's at home with a woman or he's at home with his beer, okay, that's an alcoholic,

24:00
That's something he's depending upon to feel good. We're gonna feel great after interacting in a work setting here, okay, if we feel successful. I always feel successful, you feel successful, so what's the next our day, right? So energy goes up, testosterone goes up. Well, women can do things and they feel successful. Look at all I do, I give and give and give. Women talk about, I do this and I do this and I do this and I make all this money and I'm responsible for this, and they're unhappy.

24:30
Okay, you know, I've got one client, one couple. She's like super performer. She's always doing everything. You can't have a conversation with this couple without her telling her husband how to do it better. And he becomes depressed and she's anxious. What's going on there? There's not the polarity of man feeling I can provide something meaningful to her and her feeling I don't have to do it all myself. Because when women are stressed, it's actually easier for women.

25:00
to follow through on things. That's why they tend to be way over-motivated. Okay, I'm doing this and I'm doing this and I'm doing this and, you know, and before I learned how to communicate with my wife, I just simply said, well, you don't have to do all that. Why don't you relax? So many women say, you know, I have so much to do, I have so much to do. And I say, and a man looks at that and kind of goes, but you have choice. You don't have to do that stuff, but you set it up where then you have to.

25:29
And that's kind of the dilemma we're in today, whereas women felt the power of going to their male side, not depending on anybody doing it themselves. You set up where you're depending upon the money that you make, and now you have to keep doing it the rest of your life. It's pretty tough. How to shift back to your female. So part of my work is saying, hey, if you're way over on your male side, you're stressed.

25:56
Okay, we know that if you're making higher levels of testosterone, but most important than testosterone is you're not making enough estrogen or you're not making enough progesterone. It gets a little more complicated. It's too complicated to go in a short talk. We'll just call them female hormones. When you're going towards ovulation, you need to double your estrogen. When you're after ovulation, you need to continue making estrogen, but make more progesterone.

26:25
So that now progesterone gets produced. And my observations in some studies have shown this, that progesterone lowers women's stress. Other studies show that oxytocin lowers women's stress. And these are just different studies. Nobody's integrated it. But when they do these studies on women, they don't talk about what time of the month they did the study. So what I found is that if you look at...

26:52
Oxytocin, which is known to lower stress in women and not lower stress in men. There's no research showing that oxytocin lowers stress in men. They just see the research doesn't differentiate man or woman. They could just say, oh yeah, we tested all these women, but we don't say it was all these women and men, because when you test just men, there's no, no, no study shows just men. They're just analyzing women, oxytocin, lower stress in women. And that was a big discovery in the year 2000. And, and.

27:21
We know what's associated with oxytocin is feeling safe. This is a hormone that you can actually give somebody a smell and then you start to relax and feel safe. Again, that's fantasy though, but what you want is to do things, let it be reality, do things that make you feel safe. So if a woman, for example, gets a non-sexual massage, she will feel really safe. She just feels relaxed. But also the setting says feel safe, and then she can

27:51
it works, you know, environment and helps to support and generate these hormones. So any type of non-sexual physical contact particularly raises oxytocin levels. And oxytocin levels means you feel safe. And then if you're a woman who generally don't feel safe, and now you're feeling safe, then what the next thing that happens is I feel safe to depend on you for something.

28:17
And when you can depend on your partner or depend on your therapist or depend on your doctor or depend on this podcast, whatever, I'm taking a class, I'm learning this, whatever, depending on someone for something meaningful will raise your estrogen. Now should men not depend on people? No, we should depend on people. As a matter of fact, in order to have an erection, you have to have high testosterone and increasing estrogen. And now that most people don't realize that.

28:46
Because if you connect with a woman, getting close to a woman, you have to adjust yourself. You know, you don't beat your, you know, a man, Tarzan beats his chest. You don't beat your wife's chest. You have to hold back certain, certain, you have to treat her differently, right? So when you treat her in a way that's respecting her wishes, her needs, her wants, desires, saying, yes, I'd be happy to do that. What happens is her estrogen goes up.

29:12
but also my estrogen will go up along with my testosterone. And that's the erection. So we need to have these biohacks where men can do the right things that are super easy and know they have to do those things, which are super easy. They're not big deal. It's not a big deal. It's simply like making sure you go on a fishing trip without your wife. Oh, you'll come back horny and things will be better as long as she has a life.

29:41
But if she's sitting at home overly dependent on you, then she's gonna be unhappy to see you. So women, they need to have a life separate from their partners. Just like when we went on the hunting trip for thousands of years, where the women were pregnant with babies and raising babies. And I've been in these tribes where that's the case. Women are all walked, they don't have birth control. Women are either pregnant or they're holding on to babies or they're carrying somebody else's baby. Then grandmother doesn't make babies and now helping with that. It's all a community.

30:10
So women have the support, but then when the men come back, the men are going to the jungle, sometimes in the hunt, whatever, doing things that are dangerous, for example. Women didn't do dangerous stuff. Men did dangerous stuff, why? Well, we like doing dangerous stuff, because when you have dangerous stuff, your dopamine goes up and your man and your testosterone goes up. But if a woman's doing dangerous stuff and nobody's protecting her, then her testosterone goes up and that doesn't lower her stress.

30:39
However, women do dangerous things and she feels protected by the man. That's great foreplay. That's called driving a car. When a man drives a car, this is a biohack, okay? The man drives the car and the woman sits in the front seat. And when he drives, he drives in a way that makes her feel safe. Now, how many men, you can look on the roads today and you'll see all these women driving their husbands around.

31:07
And clearly those men did not know how to drive in a way that made the woman safe. So when women don't feel safe, they start giving you instructions on how to drive. As one comedian was doing a show, I liked it a lot. I rarely quote other people, but he was saying, you know, my wife has special talents. She's my helper in the car. She tells me what colors are. She lets me know it's a yellow light or she lets me know it's a green light. She also has supervision. She can tell me where my exit is.

31:36
before I make that choice. She's so amazing to watch everything I do and improve it. So she knows the colors. She knows always she watches the speedometer. She knows when I'm going too fast. And she has this super memory where she can remember that I could get a ticket. Who knew that if I was to drive fast? So this is a comedian just making fun of jokes of a very common thing where women give it driving advice to a man and...

32:05
I want to say that it's often because the man is not purposefully driving in a way that makes her feel safe. When a woman doesn't feel safe and she can depend on you, then she goes to her male side and wants to boss you. We have something that men are not supposed to say, bossy women. But bossy women are a complete turn off to most men. But why do women start to boss? Okay. What we call that is when she doesn't feel safe, that she can ask.

32:34
or that she can get what she needs, then she has to go to her male side and do it herself. So I gotta get him to stop driving this way and we will reciprocate and say, well, if you wanna drive, then you can drive. Because we do not want somebody telling us what to do in most cases. So it's a solution. Would you understand the whole picture of this? So when you see men driving women around as a usual thing, that's because he's been impact in the car, backseat driver, but in the front seat.

33:03
So he says, basically, okay, you can drive, you know, if you know better. And that's the way we men operate to a certain extent. If somebody else will do something for us, then why should we do it? I call that the efficiency gene. Efficiency gene is never do anything you don't have to do. This is men, this is our biology. And this is, you know, we haven't located that gene actually, but most people don't understand the genetic difference between men and women, which is very little.

33:33
But we're all started out as little boys and girl, all babies up to about three to four weeks. They have all the active genes. A boy has all the active genes the little girl has. There's no difference, they say in the research. I didn't do the research, but this is what you read. There's no difference up to three to four weeks. Then the Y chromosome comes in and it releases or activates 23 genes.

34:01
that men have that women don't have. They don't have them. Now think about all these genes that women have. Those genes are all these masculine qualities and feminine qualities. They have it all. They have a male side and a female side. And that's their whole job in life is sort of balance. So you'll see a big issue for women is trying to balance their life, you know, their work life with their private life and so forth. And trying to do it alone is pretty tough. It was...

34:27
When you have a partner who holds the male side, it's easy for her to then go back to her female side. But if your life is, if there's danger and there's bills to pay, you gotta stay on your male side all the time. If you had some guy protecting you and paying the bills for you, then you can be easily on your female side and then easily go over to your male side, but hold on to your female side. That's why marriage is so powerful. And whether we know it or not, I'm looking at marriage as the ultimate biohack.

34:57
Yeah, I was just thinking of how empowering it is to think that some behavior changes that we can make can really impact all the hormones that are going on and really make us feel better in our life and our relationship. One of the things I was wondering about was, you know, you talked about the benefits of therapy for women because it raises the estrogen levels. I'm wondering how do we engage men in therapy or is therapy even helpful for men or are there different reasons why it is?

35:27
That's two great questions. I realize we're taking a different track here, and there's which I want to go down that track because you know your audience. But there's so much more to say. I just want people to know some things I did finish. And so I want to it's all in this book. I was going to say, Venus is that yeah. And beyond Mars and Venus, is that the place that they can go deeper into all these things that you're talking about? Yes, for a lot of what I'm talking about. There's there's.

35:54
What I've done in the book that will come out is a lot of the more things to do to find the balance, more things than I could ever say in an one-hour talk, but we'll cover some of those. But right now, your question actually brings us forth, which is a biohack, which is for women to go talk to a therapist. I really think it's very important for couples, counselors to talk to the woman alone.

36:22
and then talk to the man alone, and occasionally talk to the woman and bring the man in for part of it. That's it. Women need to feel completely safe if they're going to let go of, if they're gonna be able to share everything inside of them. So, a woman can share with me privately, I'm disgusted by my husband, he's a wimp. Another woman says,

36:47
He's so loving and soft. He's such a great father, but I'm not turned on to him at all. I feel like I need a man to get turned on. I feel, you know, he's lazy, he's incapable. He can't make money. I feel the pressure. I have to do everything. I never get support from him. Now imagine a man being in the room where a woman's actually sharing those feelings. His testosterone is just being knocked down. This is the woman I love. This is the woman who's supposed to love me. This is like...

37:16
It's just like, it doesn't serve people to go into a counseling session, to have some woman beat up a man. Cause all those feelings that she has is beating up on him. Anytime you communicate to a man in a way that says he's a failure, it's just simply like he gets an erection and you laugh. Okay. It's devastating. So counseling so much of the time, not with all the counselors listening, but you might wonder why, why, why they ended up getting a divorce. And of course,

37:47
If you hear a woman's story so easily, you kind of go, well, this guy, he's really, you should leave this guy. How many times, almost every time, the people that come to me, usually at this point in my career, are people with big problems. Sometimes it's people just want to make it better, but they have big problems. And when I listen to the woman, if I just understood the woman's point of view, I think, get rid of this guy, get rid of this guy. Because her picture, see, if her heart's not open, she's telling herself a story that it's impossible to get what I need.

38:17
And what I know is that they got together in the first place. In most cases, he was able to give her what she needs. Now, the relationship may have deteriorated to the point where he now is getting nothing in the relationship to boost up his male side. So he'll be more on his female side. So his tendency to have addictions will increase. And so that's where you really need to have, they should be separate and maybe even separate houses until he can handle his addiction. Once a man has addiction,

38:47
He's addicted to being on his female side. Now that's what we all understand. We're looking at the dynamic of male and female, our sides, our hormones. Whenever a man's testosterone is low and his estrogen is high, he's angry, he's sad, he's in grief, he's afraid, he's insecure. So I mentioned when my wife died, totally in love, I mean, great sex life, totally in love, wonderful family, four grandchildren, everything wonderful.

39:15
Then what happens is she dies, okay? Her mother died young, her father, she had all these genetic issues that caused cancer. So she died of cancer. It was a horrible thing, but she was painless the whole time because I took care of her and it was probably the most emotionally fulfilling experience of her life was to have me not working at all and totally being there for her and doing everything I could to save her. So the point there, I was solving the problem. So I was producing, you know,

39:45
kind of like I was fine during the process, but then after the process, having failed to save her, emotionally, of course, everyone's responsible for the life and so forth, but having felt like I failed, my testosterone was very low, my estrogen was very high, and so fortunately I knew how to process women, I had to now process back my own female side. Okay, so we have a male-female side, so I had to like,

40:15
know how to do therapy on a man who's too far on his female side. Now, so he asked me the question, how does this apply to therapy? And I'm gonna start with biology. Under moderate stress, okay, just the normal stressful life where your life's not in danger, okay? You didn't just lose all your money. You didn't just lose your wife. Your child didn't just die. You know, those are very high cortisol states.

40:45
And people should know that high cortisol states are addictive. That's another thing they found with MRIs is people who don't go through the grieving process when they lose a child, for example, or some big thing happens and they don't resolve it in some way through healing, they will stay addicted to those feelings of grief for the rest of their life. And they've done MRI scans and they see that they're producing cocaine levels. Unresolved grief produces cocaine levels.

41:14
which makes you addictive. I mean, literally it's your heroin to think about, you know, losing your child over and over, which I could have done something, it's my fault. If only I'd done this, if only I'd done that. You know, women go after they get a divorce quite often. Women stay in a place of high stress going, you know, I don't know how I created that. There must be something wrong with me or there's something wrong with men and it's just not right for me. They're addicted to that thought. See, that's a dangerous thought. It's a thought saying you can't get what you need or saying you're unworthy. You know, this is...

41:44
why I work with single women always if they've been married before, they have to look at first their grief, the loss and the anger and the fears of starting over again. I help them get in touch with their guilt. You can't have anger, sadness, fear without also feelings of shame or feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness. That's always at the deep root side.

42:12
Anger is often proving I'm right. Okay, why do we have to be so right? Cause some deep part of us feels like I'm wrong. But that's a very deep, deep part of us. And you don't always get there right away with people, but the anger and all of that is how I process feelings. So we're talking about our female side has to be processed. So you go to a, that's called therapy. And mostly it's women who go to therapy, or if they want counseling clients, if they want...

42:40
marriage counseling, I always have the woman separate and I do therapy on her. But I also do the Mars Venus ideas because you can't move on if you're a woman if you don't realize that the wound you feel from that, the failure of that relationship is a big part of you. And so many women, because they don't understand how they contribute to the problems in a relationship.

43:06
how their behaviors made it worse and worse and worse and worse. They feel powerless, you know, I tried all my best. I mean, there's not a woman who comes in here that says, oh, I did everything I possibly could. They did, but what they tried was all wrong. So you have to like first hear their pain and then you get to point out to them why they're all wrong and why he's all wrong too. Okay, clearly validating pain and her is valid, you know, he shouldn't have done this, he didn't do this, this is what you would have wanted, this is what you didn't get.

43:36
Okay, now how did you create that? How did you contribute to that? What's your role in that? Understand your role. And often, you know, at some point they go, well, you know, I'm bad, I feel bad. I did yell and scream at him and I did do this and this and this, or I was withholding sex from him or I wasn't enjoying sex, whatever it is, how did she contribute to the relationship? But she'll always go into, but I only did that because he did this and this and this and this. So she's constantly reinforcing she's a victim.

44:04
So what I have to do is give her the knowledge of long before he said this and you're yelling at this, what was the condition of the relationship? How are you interacting together? One of the situations would be, well, he doesn't do this, he doesn't do this. And I have to show her, did you ask? And then I say, how did you ask? What will most men say when they're unhappy? My wife complains all the time, she's never happy. Why can my testosterone go up in her presence if my being and present with her doing things for her?

44:34
doesn't make her happy. Well, it's like going to a job that doesn't pay, you just become depressed. You have no testosterone in the presence of your wife. So that's a dynamic. Another dynamic is you come home from work and you're ignoring your wife and then she gets all hurt because you're ignoring her, you know, and you just wanna read the news or watch TV. And you know, I feel neglected. I feel like you don't see me. Well, yeah, I get why you feel that way. But why is he watching TV?

45:02
Why is he in his garage fixing his car? You know, why is he playing that video game? Why is he doing that porn even?

45:12
Is he just all bad? No, he used to do porn with you, meaning he made love to you, but are you really wanting to have sex with him? Because those women online, they act like, they pretend like they wanna have sex with him. And then she can say, well, I don't wanna have sex with him because he doesn't do anything for me. Okay, I get that. You're dry. So that's okay. Let's understand why you're dry. He doesn't do this and this and this. Now let's break it down into little pieces. Okay, so what would be some of the things that could increase your estrogen?

45:42
So you wouldn't be so stressed out and dry, not interested in sex at all. So what would that be? Well, four hugs a day is a biohack. You sit with him and you say, honey, you know, I realized that I've learned that when my estrogen levels don't go high, I don't enjoy sex as much. And you have a way of communicating. You don't have to say, I don't enjoy sex at all. You can be nice about it. I don't enjoy sex as much. And four hugs a day would...

46:10
increase my oxytocin, that's what a non-sexual hug does if you last for six or seven seconds. That's it. Just non- your oxytocin levels will rise. Even if you're holding all this resentment towards him, your oxytocin levels will rise and then your estrogen levels will follow. Oxytocin, I feel safe, therefore I can depend on you. So during the hug, women will actually go through a little process of, oh, he's hugging me, but I'm not really feeling it.

46:39
This is sometimes, there's gonna be all kinds of variations of this, but I'll just give a story where I learned this, where my wife was a bit irritated, annoyed, kind of all, not open-hearted, whatever was going on in her. I didn't know, so I just said, "'Honey, let me give you a hug.'" And I gave her this hug, non-sexual hug. And we were doing it as a biohack before that, but I gave her this hug, and it took around six or seven seconds. I gave her an extra little squeeze and finished it. And she says, "'You know, John, that was so interesting to me.'"

47:09
In the beginning of that hug, I became aware of why I was annoyed by you. And then as the hug continued, I became aware of all the other good things you do. And then I softened and took a breath. It's amazing. So that is a simple biohack that took seven seconds and six, seven seconds. So when I get up in the morning with my wife, I find her, she would get up with the kids earlier, I would...

47:38
Well, since the first thing I do, I would go find my wife and give her a hug before the kids. Okay, she's number one. That's another biohack. Don't hug your kids first, hug your wife first. Whenever she's first, her estrogen levels go up. Just like men, if you were to win first place or your team wins first place and you win, your testosterone goes up. Well, when women are number one, okay, then they win. I am more important.

48:07
I am more, how many women feel like the husband cares more about the kids than her? Because you come home, the kids are jumping on you, happy to see him, you know, she's kind of another room angry with you. You didn't want to go in and see her. Why would you want to go see somebody? The kids are like jumping up and down. Well, then I explained to men, look, you do this, you're going to soften her. Then she will be that woman she was in the beginning when her estrogen levels were high. Because in the beginning, the high estrogen is the result of the drug state she's in of high dopamine.

48:37
For women, if they're feeling safe and they have dopamine from newness, their estrogen levels shoot up, you can do no wrong. She can do no wrong. That's just the drug state we're in. Just like if you smoke grass, there's no problems. I'm not into recommending drugs. I've tried them all. What happens is when you take some drug, maybe in the right setting, it could be, you know, there's good therapy. People are doing good therapy with it. I don't wanna dismiss that. Yeah, but I love that you're talking about the biohacks

49:06
you know, just understanding some how some of these behavior changes can impact the dynamic. You know, you really don't need to use outside drugs for, for these types of things. That's my, my understanding. And the problem with taking drugs, I'll just talk to my own experiences. You're, you're flying first class. Okay. You get a higher state of consciousness temporarily or a higher state of love and you have that it will diminish. And when it diminishes,

49:34
then you feel like you've been thrown back into coach. And that happened, I mean, I had the experience, all my stories, I got a story for every point I make. I just, that's my thing is I'm a life-turned learner. But I was at one point where I could afford first class, I remember feeling like I was so important and somebody was in my seat. I said, oh, she's in my seat. It showed the ticket, it was overbooked, the seat. The flight attendant said, there weren't any other seats in first class. Back in those days, we're talking.

50:04
First class was like almost 10 times more than economy. But you know, I wanted to fly from LA to New York. Anyway, so I got my seat. I said, where's my seat? And she said, well, we have one seat left on the plane. And it was in the middle of the smoking section. This back when there was a smoking section, if you can believe that. And I was like against smoking then. Now somebody smoking around me, I could care less. Okay. You know, I don't have all those judgments and precarious notions. And I should just say this while I'm talking about smoking.

50:33
There are toxic elements in a cigarette that cause all that disease, but tobacco doesn't do it, nicotine doesn't do it. And now we have new research showing nicotine is one of the best things to avoid getting dementia, to avoid getting Alzheimer's. It's all in my family. I had Parkinson's at 50 years old. I cured it. I had my sister died of dementia at 60 years old. I mean, it's in my family. You get these sort of genetic things. Well, I cured that one by my studying wellness and health.

51:02
And now I'm finding out my easy fix to make sure I'm not gonna have those problems besides having great sex, lots of love in my life, a good job. I also use nicotine patches. And right now the government's trying to tell people you can't use nicotine when nicotine has never proven to be addictive. It's the other substances they stick in cigarettes. And I just say that because a lot of people are going through all these long COVID things and people are finding that nicotine patches, three milligrams of nicotine on your body is taking away those symptoms.

51:30
because it binds with receptor sites that kick spike protein out of your body. It's amazing. I mean, there's so much great knowledge out there. I just have to toss that in since we've got some wise people listening. Uh, so, and they can just do a Google search, do YouTube searches for the researchers on nicotine. It's the most best thing in the world. Okay. So coming back to how I do therapy different, first of all, if somebody wants to come talk about their feelings with me,

51:58
I will, if it's a man, I will start to do, I will listen to him because if he, he's wanting to depend on me for his feelings, I will honor his female side for a little while and more quickly go into what we do as a coach. Okay. Typically coaching is setting goals, looking at your blocks to achieve those goals, how you're procrastinating and then finding strategies and having a coach and accountability coach.

52:23
in order to motivate you. Because we are always more motivated when somebody's aware of what we say we're gonna do. Okay, just, you know, if I say I'm gonna write a book and I sign on the bottom line, I get it done. If I say I might write that book, I don't get it done. Okay. It's just, when men are on their, too much on their female side, they procrastinate. So we should know that so many men are procrastinating. They have a dream, they wanna do something. They just procrastinate so much, they even stop dreaming after a while.

52:52
It's much easier just to be on your female side. And that was the wound of the stay home thing. Because men are addicted after going to the COVID thing. And I am too, okay. I used to always be happy to go out and do stuff and whatever. I don't as much. I kind of go, well, you know, I really like, and this is a real experience. I realized where I live is fantastic. I love it here. And I love, you know, being at home. I don't really want to go out. I'm addicted to being.

53:21
on my female side, depending on my environment, depending on the comforts of my home, depending upon, you know, I like to watch some movies around the time, depending on the news. All this dependings is weakening me. And so I've had to consciously, which is I'm saying to what men have to do, is consciously giving up an addiction. You have to give up your addiction to drugs, give up your addiction to complaining. That's a huge addiction for men.

53:47
if their wife is a complainer. What men will do when a wife complains, he will react back and complain back. So now he's trying to change her. I have to change her in order to feel better as opposed to I have to do the right thing and that will change her and we'll both feel better. Okay, so see there's a difference there. Whenever a man is angry, he's on his female side depending on you to approve and think what I said is right. I watch this.

54:15
You know, my wife used to get upset about her job. And I said, honey, quit that job. I can make enough money for both of us. What do you want to do that for? And she said, John, how many times I have to tell you, I love my job. I just need to talk about what goes on in my life. It's a way of us connecting. And now I understand it is a way of connecting, but I also know the biological imperative of that is a super big hack, which is when you penetrate a woman, just like in sex, you raise her estrogen if she feels safe. When you listen to a woman, you're penetrating her.

54:43
Okay, so this is, it's like emotional sex. And that's what I realized is the, you know, with the biohack of hugging, four hugs a day, the man pursues, the woman doesn't pursue him. Again, if she has to come for the hug, she's the man. If I pursue her for the hug, and this is paradoxical because I never wanted to give hugs. I don't, oxytocin doesn't do anything for me and actually can lower my testosterone.

55:11
See, it's safety. I mean, how many men, when it's safe, you lose motivation. Little danger in your life, you kick ass. You get out there and do it. See, I grew up in a world where it was all dangerous and that you don't get laid unless you have a job and you make money, because women were not giving it away for free. So the danger is if I don't make money, I don't get laid. I don't get, and what men don't know is on a spiritual level, the side...

55:38
behind our desire for sex, that's a very biological reality. But the biological reality reflects a higher reality, which is our higher spiritual self. The reason on a spiritual level, on a wise level, not just, you don't just wanna have sex to make babies because otherwise you'd stop having sex. The next level up is you wanna have sex because it's pleasurable. And that's the hedonistic, that's the limbic system of the brain. That's just a...

56:08
no spirituality at all. So what we have is a whole culture when it comes to sex, and I don't mean to offend some of our counselors listening or maybe your sex therapist, the whole emphasis is on pleasure. How to increase your pleasure. And then when that doesn't work, here's some toys. You need toys to increase your pleasure. And then what you need is fantasies to create your pleasure. As watching some stupid show on TV, you know, they're indoctrinating people with these ideas.

56:32
And, you know, they put on masks, you put on a tiger mask, you know, and he put on a gorilla mask and then they have sex. Just do something wild and crazy and different. Cause you see what happens for couples when they don't have biohacks is they lose the attraction for each other. They have to keep doing new and different things, going to new and different places, speaking in new and different ways, bringing in more partners, new and different.

57:01
bringing in a toy to do something new and different, find different holes to go into. This is all, gotta go somewhere new and different, new and different. You don't want your magnetic attraction to each other to be based upon outside new and different, or new and different. What you want to be based upon, which is the real meaning of why an enlightened type person, I call it enlightened sexuality, has sex. I don't have sex for more pleasure. It's automatic.

57:29
What I have sex for is it gets me in touch with my feelings. See, when something's pleasurable, you can feel more, particularly for men. Women can feel more. That's why women, another reason women don't get married right away or stay single is after failing in a relationship of love, they can find love in many different ways. Because when you're feeling love, it's your estrogen that goes up. And so all you have to do is depend on other people for different things, your estrogen levels will go up. But for men, the healthy.

57:58
And that is healthy for women to depend on others for love. It's just that they want to go to the highest level where they can want to make a baby. And that's why you get the biggest rewards from that. It's sex. Well, and it's vaginal sex. That's another distinction here that, you know, my eyes, it is they're controversial, but they're just common sense. Freud talked about it's a big difference between clitoral orgasm and vaginal orgasm. Vaginal orgasm, you're literally penetrating. It's an emotional experience for the woman. But for a man...

58:27
He could just be having sex for pleasure unless he just takes a moment to shift into, oh, we already started over. Oh, we already spent a whole hour together, Shane. All right, so the point of enlightened sexuality is you're feeling more when you have pleasure. Now use that pleasure to communicate love. So one of the biohacks there for sex, but you have to practice outside the bedroom first, is a process called, a woman says, and one of those hugs.

58:55
or at any time, randomly, at least every day, is a woman says to her husband, do you love me? He says, yes. Not of course, not that's why I do this. It's just a simple response. Yes, I love you. And then she says, how much do you love me? And he says, with all my heart. And then she says, do you still think I'm beautiful? Honey, you are so beautiful. I adore you. Are you lucky to be with me? I feel so lucky to be with you. Are you still glad you married me?

59:25
Yes, I'm still glad I married you. You're my soulmate. I adore you. That's it. A simple little script like that. Getting, you see, when a man is solving a problem, his testosterone goes up. When his testosterone goes up, then his estrogen can follow. So then he can feel more love behind the words. It's like you plant the flag. But if you just say to her, I love you, it's nothing compared to she says. See, she's being vulnerable.

59:53
and he is providing what she needs at that time. Same thing with the hugs. He pursues her down to the beginning. I didn't think of, I wasn't thinking about hugs. What's the big deal? But when I understand biohacks, that she needs this. So if I'm giving her a hug that she needs, my testosterone goes up. Instead of somebody hugging me and that feels good. Thanks, mom. I love you. I know you love me. No, it's I'm doing something that's meaningful and purposeful for her, then.

01:00:22
My testosterone goes up and because I'm connecting with her with love, the love will follow. I'm doing something loving, the love will follow. Then my estrogen goes up as well. So now I love giving hugs. I miss hugs. I want to give those hugs. Whereas before I could care less, but it's a way I can fulfill my wife and then it feels really good. So these are a few of the biohacks. I know our time is limited. So much of this is in beyond Mars and Venus. I just wanted to mention.

01:00:50
We'll finish up here. Everybody should get a copy of Beyond Mars and Venus for sure. And you have a coaching program as well at Mars Is that right? Where people can find that? That's there. It used to be. I used to have a thousand Mars Venus coaches. And then I just said, go out and do your thing. We have still a company that teaches the course, but it's not just for counselors, it's for really.

01:01:15
It's coaching, it's for helping the people learn strategies for relationships, but they're also taught my processing techniques for the female side. So they will in a sense do a kind of therapy more with women. It's kind of a, the whole thing with men is looking at your goals, taking action, being accountable and then looking at what your emotional blocks are to overcome that. And then you need a little therapy. So we have a course for that, how you coach women, how you coach women and do therapy with women, do therapy with men.

01:01:42
and that's called Mars Venus Coaching and people can check that out. It's an online class. It's a six week program or three month program. I think it's a three month and there's an extended one year program just coaching each other and counseling each other, so to speak. Oh, great, great. Well, thank you so much. I'm so grateful for your time, John. I learned so much. I'm sure everybody will feel that as well, but I'm just so grateful to have you on here. Oh, Shane, it was a pleasure talking to you. And I know when I can't do the whole picture, some people they get...

01:02:11
Wait a second, what about this and what about this? And that's cause I didn't have time to really buffer. It's a good beginning. We could talk for hours on all this stuff. Yeah. I think the first weekend of August, I'm doing one of my in-person classes and then here's San Francisco. You'll get extra tools and experiences. Yeah. I'll put a link to where they can sign up. That'd be great. Great retraining. It's fantastic.

01:02:38
Okay. And of course, anybody, whether you have problems, you can make it better. If you're going through stuff, you also have my help in that. Oh, great. Great. Thanks, John. Thanks so much. Yeah, thank you. All right. Yeah. Take care. All right. Thank you so much, John. And thank you to all you listeners out there. You can definitely go back to episode number 43 if you want to hear more from John. He has so much knowledge, so much experience, just a great teacher.

01:03:07
and I really appreciate him coming on the show here. Definitely go to coup and find the free resources that are available there as well as joining the free Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group. I hope all of you have a great week and we'll be back again next Tuesday. Thank you for tuning in. This is Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch. Bye everybody.

 

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