224: Understanding Emotionally Avoidant People with Shane Birkel

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane talks through how to understand and work with people who are emotionally avoidant. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 224: Understanding Emotionally Avoidant People with Shane Birkel

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In this solo episode, Shane talks through how to understand and work with people who are emotionally avoidant. Hear how emotionally avoidant people differ from pursuers, how to avoid “right vs. wrong” conversations, how partners can help communicate what an emotionally avoidant person is feeling, whether an emotionally avoidant person can change, and the mindfulness exercise you can do every day to help. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• How people become emotionally avoidant in early childhood
• How to work with people’s partners to help them open up
• Using mindfulness to reconnect emotionally avoidant people to their emotions
• Starvation of connection and the link to emotional needy people
• Strengths and weaknesses of benign emotionally avoidant
• How patriarchy influences relationships
• Helping your patients reframe their reality

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Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

 

 Show Notes

• 224: Understanding Emotionally Avoidant People with Shane Birkel
  
  
• [1:00] Working with people who are emotionally avoidant
• [1:29] Are you a pursuer or a withdrawer?
• [2:00] Strengths and weaknesses of being emotionally avoidant
• [4:26] Acknowledge who you are without going into blame
• [5:51] Is this a binary, male vs. female thing?
• [7:49] Interacting with emotionally avoidant people as a therapist
• [8:44] Working with the partner to help them open up
• [10:41] The type of home that creates emotionally avoidant people
• [13:00] Older siblings tend to be emotionally avoidant
• [14:50] Mind reading and resentment
• [16:19] Starvation of connection and the link to emotional needy people
• [18:12] How classic family therapy constructs this idea
• [20:30] Feeling allergic to emotion
• [21:27] Reactions to emotionally or physically abusive parents
• [22:22] How kids learn that they are responsible for the parents emotions
• [23:22] Respectfully communicating expectations to children
• [24:46] Often emotionally avoidant people can be very defensive
• [26:12] Having the right to your own reality
• [28:33] What's it like for you to be in a relationship with an emotionally avoidant person?
• [30:32] Emotionally avoidant people have a hard time knowing what they want?
• [31:01] Why is it important to be connected to your emotions? 
• [31:54] The difference between vulnerable emotions and anger
• [32:52] How patriarchy influences relationships
• [33:49] Emotionally avoidant people may see the emotions as a problem to be fixed
• [34:19] When their partner is getting overwhelmed emotionally, how can we learn to lean in?
• [35:48] Using meditation to be more present in difficult conversations
• [36:47] Scanning the body during stressful conversations
• [37:46] How you can help emotionally avoidant people connect to themselves
• [39:14] Leave a review! 

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: Transcript may not be 100% accurate

00:00

It's not to blame them. It's not to judge them. It's not to criticize them. It's to try to say, of course you're emotionally avoiding, of course you're struggling with this. Look at what you grew up with. It makes perfect sense.

 

00:17

to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

 

00:33

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and my goal is to bring you the best. And when it comes to the world of couples therapy, I try to bring on guests that are at the forefront of teaching about couples therapy, how to work with couples.

 

01:00

And sometimes I do solo episodes sharing with you from my own experience and my own educational background about how to work with couples. So, and that's what I'm going to do today. I'm talking about how to work with people who are emotionally avoidant. And I'm not even sure if I like that phrase. I'm not sure how else to describe it. There, you know, the way I see it, there are two ends of the spectrum. When it comes to people.

 

01:29

uh, who are in a relationship and experience emotions on one side, you know, you might hear about the pursuer, distance or pursuer withdraw dynamic. So on the one side of the spectrum would be pursuers who are, who might be considered more connected, you know, the strengths of a pursuer are that they're more connected to their emotions. They have the ability to communicate better what they need and what they want, what they're feeling.

 

02:00

Some of the weaknesses of a pursuer is that they don't have very good boundaries. They might be sort of needy and, or they might be perceived as needy. On the other end of the spectrum is people who are emotionally avoidant. And oftentimes those people are very calm and cool and collected. You know, someone you can count on someone who's good at problem solving.

 

02:30

some of the weaknesses might be that they have a hard time connecting to their emotions. They have a hard time communicating what they want and what they need. And often their partners feel sort of disconnected from them. And sometimes, so people often fit onto one side or another, but all of us experience both ends of that spectrum, right? Like somebody might feel very needy and, you know,

 

03:00

trying to communicate their emotions and they feel like their partner's constantly shutting them out. And after a while, they move to the other end where they feel like, well, I'm just not going to talk about anything. They go into a state of protection and become sort of walled off because they don't want to keep trying to bring up what is going on for them. Another example would be you might have somebody who is more, a little bit more emotionally avoidant.

 

03:30

and they stuff down what they're thinking and feeling. They stuff down what they want in their relationship. They don't say anything. They keep hoping their partner can read their mind about it. And then eventually they get frustrated and they blow up, which would be a more boundaryless sort of way of dealing with the situation. So we can kind of bounce back and forth. Some people, I think it's a very small percentage of people who might be sort of fall on

 

03:59

on both categories. I think most of us primarily fall on one side or the other. And there's no right or wrong. There's no better or worse. It's just sort of an understanding and an acceptance that, um, each of us is different. And I think oftentimes a partner on the emotionally avoidant side of the spectrum will find a partner who's on the more emotionally needy side of the spectrum. And

 

04:26

that it'll create a dance that plays out between them and their relationship that is important to communicate about is I should say, yeah, first of all, it's important just to acknowledge it and to recognize it and to see it and to not go into blame, right? Oftentimes it's easy. You know, I did, I did a solo episode a little while back about right and wrong kind of conversations. And it's easy to go into one of those right and wrong conversations to say,

 

04:55

you know, you're doing emotional connection wrong, or you're doing this relationship wrong because you're so walled off or, you know, whatever the walled off person would say to the other. And to get into sort of an argument about who's right or wrong about it. So one of the things, first of all, is it's important not to look at it like there's a right or wrong here. It's important to look at, like there are reasons why

 

05:22

each person in the relationship and each human being in the world responds the way they do and feels the way they do or has a lack of feeling for that matter. But one of the things that we have to begin to see is that this can get better. We can work on, even though we have certain strengths, we can work on helping our partner in the relationship.

 

05:51

Another thing people mention is that, well, is this a male female thing? Right? In that binary sort of sense. And obviously there's a lot of other, you know, understanding of gender at this point and sexuality, but there are ways in which males are socialized a certain way, still in our society. There are ways in which females are socialized in a certain way. And I definitely think that can play into it, you know, because of the way we're socialized,

 

06:21

men are much more likely to be emotionally avoidant. Uh, and women are much more likely to be emotionally connected or, uh, pursuers or whatever you would call that side of it. That being said, I know a lot of women who are emotionally avoidant. I know a lot of men who are emotionally needy and pursuers. And, um, so it doesn't add up exactly, but again, because of the way we're socialized, yes,

 

06:50

there does tend to be a lot more males who might fall into that emotional avoiding category. And today, you know, I'm not going to talk so much about the emotional neediness, the pursuers. I'm going to focus on the emotional avoidance. I'm going to talk about people who would fall into that emotional avoiding category and try and help you understand deeper, you know, what's going on for them, where does that come from and how to work with them.

 

07:18

if you're working with them as an individual, if you're working with them as a couple. And one thing I will say, these are very difficult people to work with as individuals. And I know from my, from my own experience as a therapist, I'll also tell you, you know, just flat out, I personally am more, definitely much more of an emotionally avoidant person, uh, myself and my own life and my own relationships. So, but, but oftentimes when I'm working with,

 

07:49

people who tend to be a little bit more emotionally avoidant. If I'm working with them as an individual, it's very hard to understand what's going on because they have a hard time expressing their own reality, what they're feeling, what they're struggling with. And so they'll come in and talk about the week and it'll feel a little bit superficial. It'll feel a little bit, you know, like everything's fine. It'll feel like,

 

08:16

I think there's a lot more going on here, but I'm not really sure. And usually, you know, that's why I love doing couples therapy so much because when I bring in the other partner, all of a sudden I'll get so much more information, so much more clarity about what would be helpful, so much more understanding about what's going on in the whole situation. So, but even if you're working with clients like this as individuals,

 

08:44

you know, sometimes I'll ask for their partner to come into the session just for, for one session or to do an, um, an individual session with their partner. You know, I'll say, Hey, do you mind if I, you know, or it could even just be a 10 minute phone call, you know, you, do you mind if I talk to your partner a little bit, just to get a sense of their perspective and what they think is going on? And even that 10.

 

09:12

minute conversation in my experience has opened up a world of possibilities for directions we can go into therapy. And the, and the, the person who's emotionally avoidant is usually grateful for it too, because they want help. They w they want, uh, to, to experience the benefits of therapy, to make progress. And they often feel stuck themselves. It's not like they're holding out on us as a therapist. It's like,

 

09:41

they really don't know what to say. They really don't know where to go with it. And so, you know, their partner can be very helpful with that. I mean, they're not always happy to hear their partner's feedback, you know, as you can imagine, if you work with couples, but at the same time, I think it helps get to the heart of the matter much more quickly. Now I want to start with the reasons why

 

10:11

uh, somebody becomes emotionally avoidant because I think once we begin to understand this again, it just helps move into compassion for people. And I think there are two primary ways that somebody might become emotionally avoidant. The first one is by modeling what happens in the, in the family system. So if you imagine a little kid growing up,

 

10:41

in their family and nobody ever talks about emotions. Nobody says how they're feeling. Nobody, um, communicates, uh, what they need or want. Then that person's not going to be able to do that. How would they even know how to do that? The other thing that happens usually in those types of families is like, let's say, you know, little Johnny comes home from school,

 

11:11

and he's really struggling and he, you know, he maybe he just got bullied at school and he doesn't know what to do. And he's feeling really sad and afraid and he comes home and he says, you know, Hey, mom and dad, I had a really hard day today. And, you know, if, if these are emotionally avoidant parents themselves, oftentimes they'll, they'll say, Oh, you'll be fine. Don't worry about it. You know,

 

11:37

there are a number of ways that the parents respond that could make the child feel like my, my feeling reality isn't important or worse, you know, the, in really abusive families where, you know, the child is crying, you know, about what happened at school that day and the parents get really triggered and activated.

 

12:04

you know, and say, you better stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. I mean, that, that's obviously a very much more extreme abusive situation, which, which does happen. But the message to the child is that your needs, your, your, your feelings aren't important. They don't matter. And a good little boy or girl is going to keep those things to themselves. If you have.

 

12:32

emotions, if you have needs, you're just going to, to make more trouble for mom and dad by bringing them up and talking about them. And again, that doesn't, that doesn't ever have to be said, but that's the emotional message that comes across in the family, you know, and, and you could look at different siblings too. You know, oftentimes older siblings, um, might be more

 

13:00

emotionally avoidant because the parents are really overwhelmed with work. They're really overwhelmed with the younger siblings. And so the older sibling ends up sort of not wanting to be a burden on their parents. So they, um, just sort of learn how to take care of themselves, not ask for anything that they need because they know they're not going to get it anyway and, uh, learn like their emotional reality.

 

13:28

Uh, just it's not worth even bringing up. And again, you know, it's not just that they don't feel like they can talk about their emotions, it's that they actually begin to develop a belief system that their emotions are a problem for other people that I'll say it again, that a good person will

 

13:53

keep that kind of thing to themselves because they don't want to be a burden to other people. You all might know people in your life who will never ask for help from somebody else. They just want to learn how to take care of it themselves. And again, there's, there are strengths connected to this. They tend to be very competent people in the world. They tend to be people that can get stuff done. They tend to be people who are very self-sufficient at times, but

 

14:21

it can be very damaging to relationships when they're not really saying how they authentically feel about something. They're not saying what they really want. They're not communicating that. And usually there's some resentment connected to that where, you know, if I'm an emotionally avoidant person and I'm, you know, 40 years old as an adult in my relationship and I'm not saying anything about what I want, I, but, but I won't, I still want my partner.

 

14:50

to show up and give me those things. I'm just hoping they can read my mind or read my passive aggressive comments or read my, you know, my anger or frustration that I exhibit, you know, and they're sort of oftentimes on the other side of that, they're sitting there confused. Like why is he, why is he so frustrated? Why is he so angry? Why is he so resentful all the time? What does he, what does he want? Right. And, and, uh, as the emotionally avoidant,

 

15:19

person, it can be very overwhelming and confusing because I feel that frustration. I feel that anger, but I don't have a way of communicating. I never learned the skills and I never felt like it was okay to say what I wanted to say what I needed. So as I was setting it up earlier, I said this is one way that somebody could become, uh, emotionally avoidant. And I want to say really quickly too, um, that this is about,

 

15:49

this would be considered emotional neglect, right? If you grow up in a family and you feel like you can't talk about your emotions and your parents don't know how to talk about emotions, then it's emotionally neglectful for that child to grow up in. And sometimes, you know, maybe if it's a younger child or if it's a, just a child with a different personality, sometimes what'll happen is or the specific way that your parents deal with these types of conversations.

 

16:19

sometimes what will happen, they'll be, the parents will be super emotionally avoidant and emotionally neglectful. And that child will sort of develop a starvation for connection. And they'll actually end up being on the other side of the spectrum where there'll be more of the emotionally needy type of person, constantly seeking from their partner, like what they didn't get growing up in their family. So,

 

16:45

Just because you, just because you grow up in this sort of, um, emotionally avoidant family doesn't mean you'll end up as an emotional avoidant, but it's one way that it happens. People can, can often based on the environment that you grow up in, you could either model what you see or you could go in the opposite direction. And this could happen with something like, let's say anxiety, you know, if you grow up, one of your parents is super anxious and they're constantly talking about how dangerous the world is and how

 

17:15

there are so many things to be scared of. You could take that message on and model it and have a lot of anxiety for yourself as an adult. Or if your parent is carrying all the anxiety in the family, you could grow up the opposite and think, Oh my gosh, like, you know, why is my parents so afraid of everything? It's not that big a deal. And you could end up being a really passive, you know, not worried about anything.

 

17:44

really, uh, you know, not, not stressed, uh, type of person. So, uh, we could talk about that, you know, with anxiety, we could talk about that with anger. We could talk about that with all kinds of different categories, but the, who we become as a person is often because we're modeling what we see or we're doing the opposite of what we saw. So, um, so I want to talk about the second way.

 

18:12

that people become emotionally avoidant. And this goes along with what I was just describing. This would be in reaction to a parents or, or a parent who is very needy, right? And there are a lot of ways that that can look, you know, one of the classic family therapy kind of constructs is this idea. And again, this is

 

18:41

a traditional family. This is, you know, there, I'm very happy with, you know, the progress that has been made to sort of challenge the traditional family setup that, you know, that any sort of family is okay. Any sort of configuration of your family is good, but in the classic sort of way that we're socialized under patriarchy, uh,

 

19:08

the way that it, you know, I think it doesn't work very well for relationships is when you have, you know, the, the classic example of the dad who is going to work, you know, who's a workaholic who's working a hundred hours a week, never at home, never emotionally present, present, never there. And then you have the mother at home taking care of the kids and feeling that disconnection from her partner.

 

19:37

and sort of, you know, developing, uh, a good, a lot of emotional connection with the kids. Now that can be healthy, or that could be that there are situations where the, the mother might, you know, end up like talking a lot about her own issues, talking about how, you know, your dad is working all the time, you know, and, and that,

 

20:04

the kid, you can imagine like a little kid, maybe 10, 11, 12, sort of becoming a confidant to that parent. And you know, that parent is relying on that kid to get some of their emotional needs fulfilled. And oftentimes it feels good to the kid. Like, Oh, I'm glad we have this good relationship. I'm glad I can be there for my parent. I'm glad whatever, but

 

20:30

But then over time it can start to feel like too much. Like it's not stuff the kid should have to worry about. It's not stuff the kid should be taking that role for. And oftentimes the, eventually the kid will start to feel like this isn't my stuff to take care of. And it's almost like they'll feel allergic to emotion, emotional connection. They'll feel like if, if somebody,

 

20:59

wants to be in a relationship with me and wants to talk about their emotions and wants to talk about what they need. It just feels like neediness. I feel like I don't want any more of that. It feels like too heavy for me. I start to feel like I have to take it on and that can feel overwhelming and that can create a kid who becomes an adult, who is emotionally avoidant and doesn't want any more of that. So,

 

21:27

Like I said, that could be, you know, obviously could be a dad who is emotionally needy and putting that on their children. Let me give you another way that that could come across. If you have a parent who's really, who's physically abusive, if you have a parent who, or even emotionally abusive, or oftentimes it's both, you know, so that

 

21:53

you're a little kid growing up in this household and every time you hear the garage door open, everybody sort of starts cleaning up and starts setting the table and starts getting nervous because you don't know what kind of like that, if that parent's going to be really angry when they walk in the door and start yelling at everybody for, you know, not doing the right thing. And in a situation like that, that's a different way that that parent is putting the

 

22:22

the burden of their needs onto the children. So that parent is coming in and making the, the unspoken message is that you better behave a certain way, or I'm going to have an emotional outburst and tell you that you are the problem. Right. So that, that's a very insidious way that, uh, kids begin to learn that they are responsible for the parents emotions. Right? Like if I just set the table,

 

22:52

then my dad won't have to get mad at me. Or if I just get good enough grades, then my parents won't give me a punishment. Or if I, you know, if I am a good little boy or girl, then my parents won't have to spank me. Right. Or something like that where the child, the child is regulating the parents emotions by behaving well in the world. And I could, I could do a whole other episode on parenting and how that could be set up in a healthy way.

 

23:22

you know, that there is a place for parents to have expectations and consequences for their kids, but that would be communicated in a non-emotional way, a non-aggressive way that, uh, in a very respectful way to the children that, you know, please, like these are the expectations that you need to follow through. And if you don't, you don't get any screen time and I love you and I care about you, but

 

23:51

you're grounded if you don't do these things, right? That's very different than the kid misbehaves and the parent blows up and yells at them, makes them feel bad, starts speaking in a harsh tone. To me, none of that is necessary and none of that is part of healthy parenting. So when kids experience that growing up in their families, they could begin to feel like,

 

24:17

you know, strong emotions are connected to a high level of anger. Strong emotions are connected to a high level of shaming, somebody getting into trouble, somebody being put down for who they are. And so strong emotions are a problem, right? If they develop that association and belief, then they're going to start believing that, you know, strong emotions are something to fix.

 

24:46

Strong emotions are something to be avoided, to be defended against, right? Oftentimes you'll see emotionally avoidant people being very defensive, you know, as adults, you know, if, if there's an emotional avoidant partner and their partner says something like, uh, I'm really, you know, I'm feeling really disconnected. Uh, you don't ever come and give me a hug when I get, I'd really love it if you'd come and give me a hug when I get home from work.

 

25:16

And the emotionally avoidant person will respond defensively by saying, well, I did give you a hug a couple of times last week, or I did, you know, I do nice things for you to make, to show you, I love you, or whatever it is. It's like, they're not staying in connection to the person's message. At that point, they're just sort of trying to protect themselves and defend themselves and, and like change the other person's perspective. Because when they were growing up in their family,

 

25:45

Um, there wasn't that healthy modeling of like, how do we talk about what we're struggling with? How do we talk about what we need and that the other person can just listen and be accepting and understanding and have compassion, uh, you know, and. The important thing to realize is that people see it differently. There's no right or wrong that, you know, when my partner is saying they want more hugs or something like that, that

 

26:12

that's their perspective and their reality. And I have the right to my own reality, but I, you know, part of being in a healthy relationship is being able to listen to what they need, being able to give them understanding and, and possibly making some of the changes if they're reasonable, you know, if, if, if it feels reasonable for me to give a couple extra hugs a week, like,

 

26:38

and that's going to help my partner a lot, then maybe it's worthwhile to, to begin to make those changes. We don't have to convince each other who's right or wrong about it. So those are the two ways that people become emotionally avoidant. I think that it's important to talk about, you know, when one of those people arrives in your office, so they're, they're an adult, they're in a relationship, perhaps it's in couples therapy, it could be an individual therapy. There's, they're going to know that about themselves.

 

27:09

that they're emotionally avoidant or if they don't, their partner will tell you. And one of the things that I look at is that it's very important for them to be accepting of difficult emotions. So like I said, and part of it might be just a psycho education around telling them some of these things that I'm talking about. I think it's extremely helpful to go into

 

27:37

their family of origin, even if you're just taking 10, maybe 20 minutes, asking them questions. What was it like growing up in your family? How did people talk about emotions? What would happen if you didn't follow directions? Well, you know, just asking some of those types of questions to try to get to the heart of like, what did it look like with parent A? What did it look like with parent B? And trying to understand their experience as a child growing up and trying to make connections to why does it make sense?

 

28:07

that you are struggling in your relationship in the way that you are based on what you grew up with. Why does it make sense that you are getting stuck or why does it make sense that your partner is feeling disconnected from you and trying to help people understand it's not to blame them. It's not to judge them. It's not to criticize them. It's to try to say, of course,

 

28:33

You're emotionally avoiding. Of course you're struggling with this. Look at what you grew up with. It makes perfect sense. And you know, sometimes I'll tell the partner, I'll say, look, they can work on this and they can get a lot better with this, but they're always going to be an emotionally avoidant person. What's it like for you to be in a relationship with someone like that? Is there enough good here for you to feel good in this relationship, even if you're not a hundred percent getting what you're looking for?

 

29:02

because that's going to help the partner move into acceptance of who that person is. And we're not going to be able to change people necessarily. I mean, I think there's some level of change that is possible. I think a lot of change is possible, but you know, when we're talking about some of these personality traits or character traits, it's going to be part of their character probably forever, you know? So we have to talk about it in the sense of

 

29:32

you know, can you get better for your partner? And I would say when we're talking about emotional avoidance, there's something that's very healthy for you as that person who is emotionally avoidant to do this work and to, you're going to feel better in the world if you don't feel like you're denying yourself. Cause the, your emotional reality is part of who you are. Just like your physical appearance.

 

30:01

your psychological self, the way you think about things, your emotional self is also part of who you are, part of how you make sense of who you are as a human being. If you're thinking things, feeling things, that makes up how you see yourself and who you are. So if you're denying these feelings, a lot of times people who are emotionally avoidant have a hard time knowing their authentic self. They'll have a hard time knowing what they really want.

 

30:32

uh, they'll default to their partner's perspective, or they'll just sort of go along with what society tells them to do, but it's disconnected from who they really are and what they really want. So one of the, one of the challenges, I think in therapy, again, go, you know, it can be very helpful to go into their family of origin, helping them explore where this came from, helping them discover, you know, starting with that acceptance and compassion for who they are.

 

31:01

And then talking about why is it important to be connected to your emotions? Why, why is it important to move into compassion for yourself? Like you were just a little boy who was growing up in this family, feeling afraid to talk about how you were feeling. That's really sad. You needed somebody to kneel down to your level and talk to you.

 

31:28

and give you acceptance for what you were feeling, tell you that was okay. You know, and oftentimes I'll see people sort of start moving into the emotion at that point, when they start to imagine that little child going through that. And that's what we really want. And to begin to create a new belief that it's okay to feel emotions, that, you know, and oftentimes, you know,

 

31:54

it might be worthwhile to talk about the difference between vulnerable emotions like sadness and fear and the different energy that that's going to have than angry emotions and angry emotions are okay too. But in the way that we are socialized under patriarchy is that for men, the only emotions that are okay are anger and lust. And

 

32:22

It's not, so it's not okay to feel vulnerable. It's not okay to feel sad. It's not okay to feel afraid. And, um, this is very damaging for boys and for men. Incidentally, under patriarchy, women are not allowed to feel anger. It's okay for women to feel sadness and fear and be vulnerable, but it's not okay for them to exhibit their power and be angry. And this is obviously very damaging for many people as well.

 

32:52

And we could talk more about understanding patriarchy and how that influences relationships and is damaging for people. But, but for now, just the understanding that, you know, what, if somebody is emotionally avoidant, if they grew up in one of those households that, uh, was scary emotionally, they might define all emotions as problems. And so their partner might like feel overwhelmed,

 

33:22

or angry or sad or anything. And the, the emotionally avoidant partner is going to define that as a problem to be fixed. Right. So, you know, why don't we just go get some ice cream so you'll feel better. And their partner is going to feel very invalidated. They could feel very, um, disconnected if that's constantly happening all the time, or, or like I said before,

 

33:49

the emotionally avoidant partner will get defensive or try to explain it away or minimize the reality of the partner. So the first step for the emotionally avoidant person is exploring their family of origin, understanding where this comes from, moving into acceptance for themselves, understanding that it's okay to feel these vulnerable emotions, and then helping them connect to their partner. When their partner is getting overwhelmed emotionally, how can we,

 

34:19

learn how to lean in? How can we learn how to reframe the reality of what's happening? Like this is a very positive thing that's happening. This is a very helpful thing for the relationship. Can we begin to help that emotionally avoidant person see it that way? That when your partner is coming to you with emotions, it's not a problem. It doesn't necessarily mean that you did anything wrong. It's an opportunity to lean in.

 

34:47

to learn how to listen, to learn how to connect with what's going on for them. And, you know, I'll teach the partner too, let's make sure you're owning your shit, you know? So if you're feeling emotional, talk about it from the first person, speak about your own reality. These are your emotions so that it doesn't feel as threatening to the emotionally avoidant partner. So this can be very helpful. I mean, I think that mindfulness is a big part of this.

 

35:17

I think that being present in the moment is a big part of this. That oftentimes if we're not honoring our present emotional state, then we're avoiding it. So when you start to learn about mindfulness and you start to learn how to be present, part of that is going to bring in a lot of emotion that you didn't know was there before. So simple sort of, um,

 

35:48

you know, meditation apps, you know, doing like a five minute meditation. You can find them on YouTube as well. There's some good apps out there, like Headspace is one that I have used before. There are several others, but you know, learning, just, just taking five minutes a day to really slow down and connect to your body. I would look at people who are emotionally avoidant are very good in their head. They're very good thinkers. They're very good problem solvers.

 

36:17

And what we want them to be able to do is start learning how to drop down into their body and to, you know, close their eyes, slow down their breathing, imagine sort of dropping down into their body. And beginning, you know, part of that mindfulness is just beginning to notice like what sensations do I feel in my body? Where do I feel, uh, sensations? Where do I feel pain? Where do I feel anything that's going on inside of me? And

 

36:47

You know, oftentimes when I'm, uh, working with people in therapy and it's a stressful conversation, it could be couples therapy. It's a, you know, uh, overwhelming discussion. I will slow people down and you know, try to have them notice like, where do you feel this? Is it in your chest? Is it in your throat? Is it in, you know, behind your eyes and just try to help them begin to connect to their body and what's coming up for them and what's going on for them.

 

37:17

And then, you know, like I said before, helping them begin, you know, the first step is connecting to themself. And then the bet, the better they can do with that. And the more they work on that, the next step is helping them connect to their partner. And it can be very difficult. I mean, another thing I find to be very helpful is giving people the language. A lot of people don't have the emotional language. And a lot of times our emotions are preverbal, you know, like

 

37:46

neural pathways that were formed when I was an infant, you know, when, when you were six months, 12 months, 18 months, before you had language, there was all kinds of stuff going on in your family and your life. And you know, so as a 40 year old experiencing the world, when something scary happens, I might just be flooded with emotion. And I have no idea what it is. Is this fear? Is this,

 

38:16

sadness? Is this overwhelmed? Is this anger? I don't even know. It just feels confusing. And that's what you'll hear a lot from people who are emotionally avoidant, that those emotions will flood in and it'll feel very confusing. And so a lot of times what I'll do is I'll give people just a sheet of paper with several emotions, um, written down. And you know, they make like wheels and things like that.

 

38:45

where you can see which emotions are connected to other emotions and they'll give you language. You know, like here's three other words that you can use for anger, things like that. And that can be really helpful for people to look at so that they begin to have more language for the emotional, the emotions that they're experiencing. So those are some helpful things, but I think really just helping them slow down in the end.

 

39:14

As you're doing this in couples therapy, the more you can help their partner be accepting and understanding and be patient with them as they're working on this, the better as well. So I think that's all I wanted to cover for today about the emotional avoidance. I hope this was helpful. Thank you all so much for listening. Please, if you're enjoying the podcast, leave a rating or a review. I really appreciate that. That really helps the algorithm, get it out to more therapists and more.

 

39:44

you know, even couples and their relationships. I get emails a lot from couples who listen to the podcast because it helps their relationship as well. So, um, if you leave a rating or a review, it'll just help get the episodes out in front of more people who this can be helpful to. But I thank you so much for all of your support. I'm Shane Birkel. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and this is the couples therapist couch. Thanks everybody. Take care.