229: Co-Parenting with Karen Bonnell

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Karen Bonnell about co-parenting. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 229: Co-Parenting with Karen Bonnell

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In this episode, Shane talks with Karen Bonnell about co-parenting. Karen is the Author of The Co-Parenting Handbook and The Stepfamily Handbook, and has culled her knowledge and skills from 40 years as a psychotherapist & psychiatric nurse practitioner to inform her guidance for parents and families in transition. Hear how to do what’s best for the kids, how to cooperate with your co-parent, how to navigate bringing a new partner into the mix, why there’s no such thing as perfect parents, and how to focus on connection before correction. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• What if new partners don't like how you parent?
• What level of communication is important between co-parents?
• How to distinguish between the end of intimate partnership and parenting partnership?
• How much time does it take to get children stable in a two-home family?
• Being on the same team as the family shifts
• The best timing for the step family journey

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

 Show Notes

• 229: Co-Parenting with Karen Bonnell
• [0:34] Welcome to The Couple's Therapist's Couch
• [1:59] Introducing Karen Bonnell
•  [4:40] How to help kids process a new partner?
• [6:38] Ending the intimate partnership has nothing to do with the parenting
• [9:05] How are you going to live your life today?
• [12:10] What are some of the biggest challenges in co-parenting?
• [14:17] What skills to look for when working with a counselor for co-parenting?
• [17:02] What if you feel the other person is not a good parent to your kids?
• [18:58] What are some good ways of talking to kids about the situation?
• [21:40] How are you showing up with your kids when they talk about the other parent?
• [25:57] How much time does it take to get children stable in a two home family?
• [28:15] What level of communication is important between two co-parents?
• [30:17] Creating boundaries and clarity with the new partner's role
• [32:52] What if I don't like how you parent your teenagers?
• [34:10] Can you endure a partner's parenting style without trying to change it?
• [35:34] How to approach parenting conversations with new partners?
• [37:26] How to support each other as parents without tearing the relationship apart?
• [41:24] The best timing for a stepfamily journey
• [48:31] Read or listen to The Co-Parenting Handbook & The Stepfamily Handbook
• [50:25] Leave a review! 

 

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This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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Transcript

Please note: Transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

Parents need to understand that even when a parent is unskillful in doing things that we don't agree with, we don't have the option to just sort of kick them off the island. We just don't.

 

00:18

Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

 

00:34

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I try to bring you the best guests, the best topics in the world of couples therapy. And the episode that I have for you today is an interview with Karen Bonnell and she came on in episode number 36 all the way back.

 

01:03

and episode number 73. In episode 36, she talked about co-parenting through divorce, and this is her area of expertise. And then in number 73, she talked about stepfamilies. So she's really good, she's written books, she's the author of The Stepfamily Handbook, and she's also the author of The Co-Parenting Handbook. So when couples are going through a divorce,

 

01:31

They have to figure out how to co-parent with each other. That's what I mean by the co-parenting, just trying to be healthy for the kids to make sure that can be a really tough time. I know I've worked with a lot of people in that situation. And then the step family situations are when a new relationship begins and you're bringing another adult into that. So we talk all about those topics today. And without further introduction, here is the interview with Karen Bonnell.

 

01:59

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and today I'm speaking with Karen Bonnell, author of the Step Family Handbook, the Co-Parenting Handbook, and the Parenting Plan Workbook. Hey, Karen, welcome to the show. Shane, it's so great to be back. It's only been about six years since we visited last about families and couples and kiddos, and here we are. It's so good to be back.

 

02:24

Yeah, it's so good to see you. I know we were just talking before we started recording. That was all the way back in 2019, I think. And I'll have to go back and look what the show number was. If people enjoy our conversation here, they can go back and listen to that one as well. But why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Sure. Well, Shane, you know, I was a psychotherapist for a good 25, 35 years doing mostly working with adults and couples and families.

 

02:53

The last 15 years of my practice though took a pretty serious focus on parents who are navigating separation and divorce. And the consequence of that is I would work with families who are separating and divorcing. Five years later, they'd come back and they'd be trying to figure out how to do step-family, how to recouple and how to make sure that kids could safely move from their established two-home family life into the possibility.

 

03:22

of sharing a home with another adult and potentially their children. So, um, I would say the last 15, 20 years have really been about families in transition and how to best support those, you know, they're just developmental stages of adult relationships, separation, divorce, stabilization, dating, introducing kids, turning into a step family. Those are the things that I've been focusing on.

 

03:50

Yeah, I love that. And I think it's so important. I mean, it's one of the things that I feel like people often have a hard time finding resources for. And I do think there are obviously every situation is different. And there are probably hundreds of ways that this could unfold. But I do think there are two very specific, general topics or timeframes, you know, when a couple is going through that time.

 

04:19

where they've decided to separate and possibly decide to get a divorce. And they're trying to figure out how to do their best as parents for the kids, how to help the kids through that process. And then the next phase that you mentioned, which is about like, okay, what about when we begin to start a new step family? How do we help the kids through that process where I'm introducing a new partner into the situation and everything like that? So.

 

04:49

Maybe we could start with people who are going through a divorce and co-parenting, you know, just some thoughts to, you know, some of your work and some of the things that you have found to be helpful for people going through that phase. Shane, I think the one thing I'd want listeners to know is that as hard as ending an intimate partnership, ending a marriage is for the grownups. You can do this. And you can do this in a way.

 

05:18

that supports each other and supports your children, even when you don't want to. Even when you're hurt or mad or feel betrayed or are really really scared about your future and about your children. What I want to really hold is this possibility that you can get really good people. Shane's an example. Get a really good person in your corner to help you navigate that without attorneys and the courts and the legal process.

 

05:47

that often brings gasoline to a fire. I mean, there's already often a little fire brewing here. There's sparks fly in. There's lots of high emotion. What we want to do is bring people into our lives, professionals who are gonna help us navigate that territory, which is not easy, but to navigate it with as much skill and grace as we can. And why? Because we have children. I mean, in this case,

 

06:14

talking about the real beneficiaries of us being skillful are our kiddos. Okay. So when I'm working with a couple, when I've been working in the past with couples who have made that difficult decision, regardless of the circumstances, I talk with them very specifically about two things. They're ending their intimate partnership in what I would call their spousal or intimate partnership mind.

 

06:43

Like there's a lot going on there about what you did or didn't do, what you promised, what you didn't promise, what you followed through on, what you didn't follow through on, right? Has nothing to do with parenting, right? But oftentimes that gets conflated is if somehow, no, this is about parenting. So we're going to pull apart what's going on for us as intimate partners. And then we're going to remember what's going to endure is that we're always going to be parents.

 

07:10

to these children. That's the non-negotiable part is I often say to parents, that was the part that was until death do us part. We will always be parents to these kids. We call that parent mind. So I don't want to do anything in parent mind that's going to hurt my kids. I would throw myself in front of a bus to prevent hurting my kids. You know, that's what most parents will tell us. So we've got to be aware.

 

07:39

that the damage often is going to happen in that intimate partnership relationship part of our brain, not in the parent part of our brain. And to be aware of that difference. Yeah. Well, that's such a great motivating force for people to think about, I just want to do what's in the best interest of my kids. No matter how painful it is for me to try to do this, it's so important and I'm willing if it's going to be

 

08:08

better for my kids. But I do have a question, you know, because what happens often is, you know, I'll be talking to someone who will say, Well, I'm, I'm the healthy partner, and my partner's unwilling to work with me, or my partner is a narcissist, or my partner's whatever, you know, how I'm the one who's doing the right thing and trying to do be good and work with them, but they're not really cooperating with me. Right? Well,

 

08:36

You know, we have to have a conversation about fifth grade playground rules, Shane, as painful as it is. Um, this is not about I'm going to do it if you're going to do it, or I'm going to treat you poorly because you treat me poorly. This is about waking up in the morning and asking yourself three questions. How am I going to live my life today? Am I going to be the person on the planet that I want to be regardless of whether my ex partner, ex

 

09:05

spouse, ex, whatever, is going to behave in a constructive way or not, what am I going to do? And that's on me solely. It's in my file, right? The next question is, am I going to be the best parent I can be? And that's my relationship with my kids. Am I going to make sure that I'm being loving and structured and warm and doing the things that they need for me to do, which includes...

 

09:32

which includes respecting the fact that they have another parent. I might not respect that other parent, but I respect the fact that they have another parent and that's a different situation. The parenting relationship from my point of view, Shane is sacred. It's not ours to mess with. We know if we go back to sort of, not that this is about religion, but in the biblical terms, it's honor thy father and thy mother, honor thy parents, mother, mother, father, father. I don't care. What I'm seeing is,

 

10:01

It's not mine to break. My children will grow up and make their own determinations about the relationship they wanna have with their other parent. It's mine to be respectful of that relationship, right? So we've had two of the three questions. Who do I wanna be on the planet? Who am I as a parent? And the last one is, have I been a skillful co-parent? Regardless of whether my co-parent is being skillful in return.

 

10:31

Have I followed best practices? Have I done in a sense the right thing by my children and their other parent? So those are the things I ask people to be aware of. It's not fifth grade playground roles. Well, you didn't play fair, so I'm not going to play fair. You're a narcissist, so I'm going to be self-centered and self-righteous and judgmental and all kinds of things. Then help. Yeah. It's not like that because then we don't, we're not defining success by

 

11:02

things that we can't control. If I'm doing what you're talking about, I'm setting up the expectations for myself and part of that is emotional work that I have to do for myself to let go of things I can't control. But then I'm just focusing on how am I showing up for my kids, how am I showing up as a parent, how am I being respectful to everybody involved in this situation and things like that. 100% and that's the part I can control.

 

11:30

Not always easy. So I don't want anybody to hear me suggesting that that's easy, but it's our work. And it's work that's worth doing for ourselves and for our kids. And frankly, for our communities, right? For our extended families, there's going to be birthday parties and kindergarten graduations and college celebrations. And if God's willing, weddings and baby namings beyond. So this is not just work I'm doing for right now.

 

11:58

this is the platform I'm setting up for my children for the rest of their lives. And I get to be in charge of my part of that process. Yeah. So what are some of the biggest challenges that you've seen, you know, with going through this? Obviously, I bet you have a lot of success stories, people who

 

12:25

have been able to communicate well, who have been able to try to be respectful, work through that for the kids and be good co-parents together. But what are some of those challenges that you often see with people who are struggling through that and trying their best to do it the right way, but really struggling? I would say the biggest challenge is information. And people often don't have good information. I guess we're struggling with that as a larger community right now is where do we go?

 

12:55

for good information. And what I mean by that is accurate information. So oftentimes people will think that they have to call an attorney or they have to take certain steps that are actually not necessary. You know, if you and I were ending a 20 year marriage and we had three beautiful children, you and I could find a way to do that with the right support, with the right support.

 

13:23

without ever involving the legal system. So I would say that that information is really critical. If we go into it from the position of, I have to protect myself from you, Shane, because you're gonna take advantage of me, or you're gonna take the children from me, or some long list of fearful statements, or questions, or comments, we're gonna be often running into a situation we actually neither wanna be in.

 

13:50

I could tell you great stories of parents who inadvertently started down that road and the more destructive it got, the more it became clear to them that they wanted something different for their children. And then they would pull out of that ugly process only to say, help us, help us do this. That means that there are skilled people, mediators and co-parent coaches and people who really have studied this territory.

 

14:17

Helping with emotional regulation, helping with grief work. Big, grief work is big. Helping with the fears of the future, helping people be able to see where are we going and how will we get there? You know, one of my favorite stories is you get lost in the woods with your kids and it's nightfall. And you wonder if there's gonna be bears. The last thing you do,

 

14:43

is feed into all of those fears, right? You turn to your kids and you go, sweetheart, mama brought bars for us to eat and we got water and we're gonna find our way out of this and we embed confidence in a situation that is uncertain. So when parents are walking the separation and divorce territory, it's just fraught with bears and darkness and uncertainty and all kinds of things that could generate all kinds of fears.

 

15:13

When you have the right guide, it's like having the perfect compass. We're gonna get you through this. I'm not saying it's easy. I don't want anyone to think this is a walk in the park, but we're gonna get through it. So back to the right people in the right places. Do I have a good therapist? Am I doing my grief work? Am I figuring out how to sleep? That's my primary care provider, isn't it? I need to make sure I'm eating and sleeping.

 

15:40

I need to make sure I'm not overusing alcohol to cope. Right? We need the right people, the right time to help us through this. Yeah. And I, and I feel like, you know, it's really, it can be really overwhelming and stressful for the adults going through it, but it's even that much more overwhelming for the kids oftentimes, right? Because they don't...

 

16:05

even have as much control as the adults who are making the decisions in the situation. So the story that you just told, I feel like is so important, that continued communication with the kids, that reassurance, telling them that everything's going to be okay, even if you're not sure how you're going to make it work. That's exactly right. We call it trickle-down confident guide. So if I'm working with a set of parents who are really scared...

 

16:32

I'm giving them confidence that we're going to find our way through it, that we're going to help them get to the other side. And that allows them to go home into their, at this point might be a two home family, but they now can use that same confidence with the children. It's trickling down into the family. It's reassuring the grandparents. It's helping the aunts and uncles to settle down and know that the cousins are all still going to be there. It impacts the entire community, how we go through this.

 

17:02

Right? Yeah. Now, one of the questions that you asked is, what if I have a parent who I'm really afraid is not a good parent to my kids? Right? Like they're really, they're not doing the right thing. They're spending more time with a girlfriend or a boyfriend than they are with the kids. Or they're introducing somebody too early, too soon. They're not making sure the kids get to bed on time. You know, this is a really hard thing to hold. And parents need to understand.

 

17:31

that even when a parent is unskillful and doing things that we don't agree with, we don't have the option to just sort of kick them off the island. We just don't. Now there are some things that will get a parent, limitations or restrictions on parenting time, obviously any kind of child abuse and neglect, any kind of sexual boundary violations, but you know what? They're big. They're the big things. They're not, well,

 

17:59

They only feed a macaroni and cheese for dinner every night when they're at their other parents. And here's what I say. Well, I hope it's the best macaroni and cheese on the planet because that really good macaroni and cheese served in love is what those kids need. They don't need organic broccoli right now. They need to know that they can be in relationship with both of their parents and be safe and be cared for and be okay.

 

18:26

even as things are topsy-turvy, even if I don't get to bed on time, right? Kids grow up and they learn to brush their teeth. We don't need to go completely unglued over a parent who forgets to brush a five-year-old's teeth. Now, do you and I agree, tooth brushing is important? Yes, we do. But this is a time where we're thinking about how do we get through this in the safest, sanest, least stressful way as we can.

 

18:58

And what are, you know, you're sort of getting into this a little bit, but what are some good ways of talking to kids? You know, if they're saying something and I'm starting to get triggered about, you know, about the other parents or something, you know, what are what are some things to keep in the back of my mind as I'm communicating with my kids to try not to make it more stressful or confusing for them or talk bad about the other parent or something like that?

 

19:23

Exactly, exactly. So the first thing I need to do when I'm hearing information from the other household through my child that's worrisome to me is I have to assess whether it's actually a dangerous situation, right? Like I have to assess, is this something that meets the threshold where I need to go to my co-parent and curiously ask the question? You know, Madeline came home today and said that you're keeping three Rottweilers in your kitchen.

 

19:52

And I'm just curious if you can tell me more about that. Notice that's a very different phone call than this other one where Madeline came home today and told me you're keeping three Rottweilers in your kitchen. What kind of an idiot are you that you would allow three Rottwatt, do you see what I'm saying? So the first is an example of, I first need to be curious because we've got to remember, children are children. And they're not necessarily the most accurate reporters.

 

20:22

of what's going on. So I'm going to first assess danger or not danger. If it's something like daddy, let me have three ice cream cones or mommy let me do x, y, or z when I was with her, then I'm going to say, you know, you are lucky that you have a mama or a dada that lets you do things that you know, you're not going to do here, right? You know that that's how what we do at this house.

 

20:49

But you're so lucky that you have a dad or a mama who lets you do X, Y, or Z when you are with them. End of conversation. You're going to keep your boundaries. You're going to keep modeling. You're healthy parenting. You're going to remember what is important to you without throwing your co-parent under the bus or getting the unduly charged up about it. Right? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. You know, and, and figuring out when is the time

 

21:18

to call and be curious about certain things is really important and maybe just something to learn as you go through this and maybe a little bit different in every situation, but if it's about ice cream or Rottweilers or whatever it is that, there has to be that process of like, first of all, how am I showing up with my kids when they're talking about this? Second of all,

 

21:45

Is this something I really need to bring up with the other partner? Or is it something I need to let go and just do my own sort of grief work about what I can't control? Exactly. That's exactly right. And you know, it's a judgment call, but where most parents make the mistake or sort of lose their ground is that they tend to want to be upset about everything. You know, how much video time or, and I'm not saying these things are unimportant. What I'm saying is they're not battles you're going to win.

 

22:15

And the battle themselves, the battle all by itself is damaging. So you want to choose the battles wisely because kids otherwise end up caught in the middle. And the last thing we want is the kid to stop talking about what's going on across both of their homes, right? And so if we're reactive, every time we come home and

 

22:39

You know, Billy says, Oh man, daddy took me to a soccer game and I didn't even get home until 11 o'clock and didn't even get to bed until midnight. And we're over here reacting. How quickly do you think Billy's going to shut down and not tell us a thing about the excitement he had going to daddy's soccer game? Right. Right. So we've got to sort of look at the downstream impact of how we respond and what we respond about. Right.

 

23:09

Yeah, and sometimes, I don't know what you think about this, sometimes I'll tell people, the best thing you can do is provide a loving, supportive, safe environment in your own home, in your own relationship, in your own, you know, be healthy as an adult with your children. That if your partner is doing things that aren't helpful or healthy for the children, that's going to have an impact on their long-term relationship with the children. 100%.

 

23:37

100%. So, you know, someday when the kids are 25 years old, you know, are they going to still feel like you're a safe person, they can come and feel good about that relationship. You can't control what happens with your partner in that. That's exactly right. You know, the other thing I often say is, you know, children by nature grow toward the light. They know the difference. And although a teenager might

 

24:03

be easily seduced into thinking that all the new, you know, techno gadgetry at one parent's house, you know, is all that and fascinating and it may seem like you're going to lose the love of that child or lose that relationship. What I will say over and over again, if you've had a safe, secure, attached relationship with your kiddos, do not worry about those vicissitudes. Just stay constant.

 

24:32

always known you to be. Be consistent in your boundaries, your love, your warmth, your structure and let nature take its course. There may be times when a child pushes away only to come back and those are really hard moments for parents and two home families when a kiddo decides that I'm just going to hang out at dad's because dad lets me do it if I want to. I just want to hang out at mom's because she you know doesn't have a curfew.

 

25:01

Those are all possible things. Those are real stories. And the fight is more destructive than holding clear and just being who you are in relationship to your kids. Great. Great. Well, I do want to take advantage while I have you here and fast forward to the, you know, step family situations where, you know, now

 

25:28

one of the parents is bringing another partner into the situation. And this is something I definitely work with people a lot that people struggle a lot with. So I'd love to talk about that if that's okay. Sure, sure. So let's talk about in an ideal world, just so people have an idea about how the ideal world looks, we make the decision to separate, we go ahead and execute on that, we get a legal divorce if that's indicated. The next step.

 

25:57

in an ideal world is that we help our kids become stable in their two-home family life. In other words, we give them enough time. And how much time is that? Well, it varies. But in general, in general, we say enough time. It's about a year. For some kids, it could be two. But we give them enough time to feel confident and competent in how it's gonna work now that mom and dad, they have a home with one parent and a home with the other.

 

26:27

Notice I don't say mom's house or dad's house or whatever variation that is. I say you have a home with mom and a home with dad, or you have a home with each of your parents. Okay. And when kids feel confident and confident in how that works, they have more bandwidth or more capacity to consider integrating another adult and or other children into their sense of family. Okay.

 

26:55

So when parents are aware that that liminal space in between is really helpful to kids, sometimes they can kind of slow their role and they don't feel the need to get right on websites and meet that next person and introduce them to the kids and off and running because for kiddos, that's really stressful. Yeah, even when they act like it's not, partly when they act like it's not, well, isn't Maria gonna come?

 

27:23

Daddy, isn't Maria coming this weekend? We really like Maria. Maria, Maria here. Okay, this is a six, seven, eight, 10 year old saying, I wanna control this. I wanna control Maria's comings and goings. And so I'm gonna do this thing. And you as my parent, what I need from you as my parent is to say, I'll let you know when Maria's coming. She may stop by and have dessert with us tomorrow.

 

27:51

But you're going to control the comings and goings. You are going to control how this goes so that kids can remain safe and really trust that the team of two or three or four of you and the children are going to maintain stability, even as the new person comes into your life, if that makes sense. Yeah. And what level of communication do you think is important between the two parents, the two co-parents?

 

28:20

about, hey, I'm bringing another person into the kid's life. Well, great question. I really ask, in fact, we talk about this during the parenting planning process when we're doing parenting plan. I ask that parents agree that before we introduce the children to a new romantic partner, as a romantic partner, like this is my special person or my girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, that you alert your co-parent that that's going to happen.

 

28:49

not for permission by all means, not for permission. But what I want is that when the kids come back from that residential stay where they've met a parent's new romantic partner to the other co-parent, right? I want that co-parent to be emotionally prepared for the stories that are going to be told. I don't want children to ever feel like they're telling a secret or that they've broken a parent's heart by saying something that the parent didn't know. Right?

 

29:18

So if our kids come running into you, Shane, and say, daddy, daddy, mama has a new special person, and you go, I know, she told me. That's a very different experience for kids than to watch your eyes go sad and your heart drop into your toes and go put your things away. Right, because I can't emotionally handle what you're telling me. See what I'm saying?

 

29:48

really good contrast. Right. So I ask the parents are respectful. This again is not about bringing you into my personal life. This is about something that impacts our children. And that part we're in on this together. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot more of that energy of, hey, let's, we should bring Maria when we're going to the next activity or something. At the beginning.

 

30:17

But oftentimes it can settle into a lot more challenges of, how do we deal with differing parenting styles or differing expectations or what's the difference between being a good roommate or how we're sharing space together versus you're trying to parent me kind of things, which get to be very difficult conversations. Right on.

 

30:46

And of course really has a lot to do with growth and development, doesn't it? Because if I'm, if I'm three, if I'm three and Maria is a loving, um, well boundary, helpful adult in my life. Notice those words loving, you know, healthy help, helpful adult, which is different than someone who's taking over the parenting role in the family away from my other parent, right?

 

31:14

Then I'm going to have one experience of Maria as I grow up. Then if I'm 13 and Maria is part of one of my parents, life moms or dads, and Maria sort of now thinks that they have authority over me. If I'm 13 and you think you're going to have a third, I've never met a 13 year old looking for more parents. Never. Not one. I'm not sure about you, Shane, but I've not known that animal. It's like more people parenting me. No.

 

31:44

They're looking to kick parents off the island as best they can. So if it really looks different when a new adult comes into children, nine years and younger, those children are more often more willing to accept the authority of another adult or more willing to be interested in letting them care for them. When we start getting 10, 11, 12 and above, we've got to be very careful about a new adult.

 

32:14

that they get a parenting role. Because it's likely that they will never have a parenting role in those children's lives. I'm gonna say that again. It is likely that they will never have a parenting role. Now, will they become important people? Oh, goodness knows, I hope so. And they have the possibility of becoming the most important mentors and adults in these teenagers and later young adult lives. Absolutely. But parenting?

 

32:44

That's misguided. Yeah. Right. And so we have to really look at what are the developmental stages of the children, and then we have to look at as the adults, do we agree with that? What if I don't like how you parent your teenagers? I think you, I think you let your kids get away with murder. I would never let my kids get away with that. Okay. Now what do we do? Right. Yeah. And I, and I think those sort of like, um, you know, like

 

33:14

if I have an expectation as a partner that the other partner is going to keep the kitchen clean, for example, that we're going to clean up after ourselves, if they have 14, 15-year-old kids, how am I navigating that conversation as just a human being who this is part of my boundaries or something versus feeling like another parent to them? Right. And the real question is,

 

33:44

is can I actually endure years from 14 to 18 when that little person who might not wipe the crumbs off the counter very adequately or leaves continues to leave dishes in the sink, whatever the case may be. Can I kind of just endure that until they go to college without trying to change my beloved's parenting style? I mean, there's a little bit of that. I love that. That's a good

 

34:13

Wait a second, if you didn't want to live with a teenager, now teenagers are messy, I don't care who they are. And you know, it's always easy to be a perfect parent when you're not the parent. Like the perfect parent is the person who's never raised a child, because as soon as you've raised one, you know, like there are no such thing as perfect parents. And you may have a kiddo who does a beautiful job of swiping up the kitchen. And then you may have another one whose ADHD makes it impossible for them to do a very good job of swiping up the kitchen.

 

34:43

And what do we do about that? Right? How do we hold that space? It says, you know, my kids are unique and different and no, they're not your kids. And boy, your two girls are really good at cleaning up the kitchen, but my boys are not so good at cleaning. You know, like, how do we love on each other and hold space for the fact that we are stewarding for beautiful beings into adulthood without losing our head over crumbs in the kitchen.

 

35:13

Yeah, and so much of what you're saying, I just think about, you know, as a rule of thumb, it's just good to keep the child's experience in mind and whatever we're doing, just like, what must this be like for them? And then kind of build on the conversation from there. But what would you say are some of the, you know, if I'm struggling, like, let's say my partner, my new partner has kids, and I want to...

 

35:42

suggest parenting them in a certain way? How would you approach that situation? That's a really good question. Very carefully, to be honest. This is a process that always needs to start with, I really respect the fact that you're the parent here. And I have a request that we have a conversation about putting the seat down on the toilet when the boys are done using it. I'm using like...

 

36:10

This is just like a silly but often important conversation, right? And so then we can have a conversation about how might we solve this problem without creating a secondary problem, which is for the boys to think you don't like them or that you're policing their toileting behavior or any number of other sequelae that might come out of that if we're not careful. So

 

36:38

Yes, can I ask you to partner with me on this so that the the restroom is cleaned up when the boys are done, they've wiped up the floor, they put the seat down. This actually has a personal some personal background for me because I had a son who was like on to the next thing before he was finishing the first so you know we had trouble there. So that but the fact of the matter remains you've got to be careful about how much we push

 

37:06

in a way that results in more conflict than solution. So I can make a request, can you partner with me on this? But let's be aware that these kids are all gonna grow up. They are all gonna grow up. And so how do we support each other to be the best parents we can be without necessarily tearing our relationship apart? Because I'm just plain disappointed in you. Right? Yeah.

 

37:35

Well, and part of what you're saying, number one is that that conversation is happening between the two adults. It's not the kids wouldn't be part of that initially that I'm going to the. The biological parent. And I'm saying, well, and the second part is that it's a humble request, right? I'm saying this is a humble request that I'm making. Right. Um, what do you think? And, uh, trying to just start that conversation.

 

38:05

And oh yeah, and I forgot the other thing you said is sort of valuing them as a parent saying, hey, I really appreciate all the things you're doing. You're doing a great job. And here's a humble request that I have. That's right. That's right. And, you know, I think I think one of the things that's really hard about step family is particularly if the partner is not a parent. So, you know, you have two beautiful little girls. You and I form a relationship. I am so excited because I don't have kids of my own.

 

38:34

And I have this fantasy about what this is going to be like. I have this story in my head about how I'm going to help raise these two beautiful girls as if they're my own. That's all it is, is a fantasy. And so grieving that and coming to grips with the fact that they have a mama or they have another parent, they have you, you all, the four of you, all have a history I'll never be a part of. Shane I'll never be a part of that history that you all have. Right?

 

39:05

And so there's all these other feelings that come up in step family that people don't appreciate or realize by the very architecture of what a step family looks like, feels like, and operates like. So you have your two girls. I have my two girls. We all live together. We now have four kids. We have two teams of three, you and your two, me and my two. There's our two teams of three. We have

 

39:32

a team of two, you and I as adults. There's a team of four, those four siblings, trying to figure out how to be siblings, maybe if they want to, right? And that's a big question, we can't force it. And then we might even be trying to do some things as a team of six, in other words, all of us, the four kids and you and I. That's a lot of subgrouping to manage. Yeah. In an original family, that's not how it works. You and I get married.

 

40:00

We have a baby, then we have another baby, then we have another baby, then we have another baby. And it's like, we're all the same team. Yeah. That's what an original family feels like. Does that answer you? That's so true. Yeah. Right? And we didn't even mention that your kid's other parent is in their life. And my kid's other parent is in our family. They come through the front door, literally or figuratively, because our kids move back and forth. Right.

 

40:30

And if you add on top of that, that one person has very different expectations for their kids than the other person coming together, that's going to be a huge thing to navigate on top of everything else. It takes a lot of adulting to do step family. It takes a lot of big heart and love and adulting to do step family. That's why step families up and struggle. Yeah. And someone's feelings are often hurt.

 

40:59

because of what I would call missed expectations. I thought it would be different. I thought it would feel different. I wanted it to be different. I didn't know. I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. And it was probably you who talked about this before, you know, the last time I talked to you, I remember

 

41:24

whoever it was saying that you're dealing with a new relationship as well. So the two adults who are getting into a relationship, there's that dynamic which the kids are going to possibly feel jealous of, but the partner is also going to feel jealous of the relationship with the kids and it's going to create all kinds of the things that you're talking about with the different groupings. Stop crimes. Yeah. That is completely right.

 

41:52

As part of why we have a saying in the step family world, which is the slower you go, the faster you get there. And so the slower a partnership, the adults, the slower they take their romantic relationship in terms of develop that middle ground. I know that's common language for you, Shane, that ability where you and I figure out what does it mean to be you and I that middle ground is this is how we do things. This is what we're going to be like. This is how we're going to come together.

 

42:22

The more we develop some of that strength, some of that weaving, you and I, before we involve the kids, the more resilient we are. The more we know what we can lean into and where we need to take a breath, right? So the slower we go, the sooner we get there in the family, the slower we expect my children to wanna be with your kids or my children to allow you to be a...

 

42:48

parenting figure in any way, shape or form to them, the slower we go, the sooner they might invite you into that role. I always say, you know, getting married doesn't make you a step-parent. Very interesting and nice, you're now a spouse, a partner, whatever, to somebody, but that doesn't give you a parenting standing with children. That is something they will give you when they're ready. And if you expect that that's just gonna be granted because you married someone, there isn't...

 

43:18

Good example of that missed expectation. Your kids don't respect me. Well, you got ahead of them. You didn't give them a chance to build the relationship, the connection before you started correcting them and telling them, put the seat down in the toilet, what's wrong with you? Right? Connection before correction, always. Yep. So if I'm the stepparent coming into

 

43:48

the situation. I mean, the way I'm hearing it is like, I'm very much sort of accepting wherever the kids are at with it, accepting that I'm not going to have a very big role, accepting, you know, I have to be patient and really not have any expectations about what this is going to look like or, you know, and I would maybe defer to the biological parent about the way they want to do things.

 

44:17

And again, I can make humble requests perhaps at times, but I'm really sort of have to do my own work of being patient and accepting that it's not gonna look like what I want it to. Very likely. I mean, it doesn't always, it's not always quite that stark. Shane, and sometimes kids are really relieved to see another adult in the house. It makes things move more smoothly. They really appreciate that maybe that person's a good cook

 

44:47

That person is always happy to help them learn to drive. There's a lot of ways that a new adult in the family and even new potential step siblings or siblings really enhance a child's life. So I don't want it to all be negative. What I want people to be aware of is that if you go too fast, you're gonna end up having to reverse course and start over because that almost always causes reactivity that's unpleasant. And so...

 

45:14

Kids have lots of complicated feelings about someone sleeping with their parent. You know, they're used to being able to go into the bedroom and say, Daddy, Mommy, I need and not have another person there. It's a complicated step family creates complicated feelings, especially for teenagers, especially for teenagers. If I have two teen daughters and you're my new partner, I don't care how well they know you.

 

45:39

In the morning when they're getting ready for school and they're in the kitchen trying to get some toast They do not want you in there getting coffee You know, it's going to take a while before they're going to feel comfortable having a non You know a male non-family member around them in their bathrobe And if we don't understand how that feels it gets misinterpreted Right your kids don't like me. No, my kids like you lots

 

46:08

They're just uncomfortable in their bathrobe around you. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that just goes back to that psychological work for all of us about understanding that other people have feelings and that's okay. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily doing anything wrong or somebody needs to be blamed. It just means they're struggling and it might be hard for me to hear and that's okay. And it brings me back to my own personal work.

 

46:38

There you go. That individuation that says, I can hold all of this because stepfamily is asking us to hold a lot. It does ask us to hold a lot and it moves over time. It can be going really smoothly with younger children, maybe years, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, and going beautifully. And then we hit the teen years and things just go sideways. And I think a step-parent can be shocked at the, what was

 

47:03

I thought the quality of our relationship and now they're telling me square to my face, you're not my mom. So stop trying to be one. And you're like, Whoa, what was I just doing for the last six years? Yeah. Ouch. Yeah. My own biological teenagers say that kind of thing to me, but I imagine for a stepparent, it's even harder because we have such a foundation. You know, it doesn't phase.

 

47:31

me as much or biological parents as much probably as, as step parents, that'd be very confusing. Right. Right. And this is where I would want a partner to be able to step in and wrap their arms around their, their, you know, their partner, their beloved, and just love on them for all that they're giving to be part of this family life, all of the adjustments, all the spaciousness they have to hold to help raise somebody else's children.

 

48:01

in a way that may not be second nature to them, which may be very different than they ever expected or thought. And yet I can do this and I wanna do this. And these kids are gonna grow up to be amazing adults. I just can't see it from here. But like you said, even as parents to kiddos, my own children, there were probably moments when I wondered if we'd actually see that place where I'd go, wow, I'm so proud of them. They're amazing.

 

48:31

But self-doubt and questions do still occur. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, good. I know we have to wrap it up here. Anything else to mention? You know, other than I would just say to people, if you're thinking about starting to date or you're a non-parent and you're thinking about dating a parent, I would listen to or read the Step Family Handbook. I know it sounds like it's ahead of itself, but it really starts with dating.

 

48:57

You know, am I ready to date as a parent? Am I ready to date a parent? What would that mean? And then all the developmental information about how do I get to know somebody else's children and build that relationship, right? And then the third section of the book is literally everybody living together and how might we do that in the best way possible? So that's something I would recommend. And similarly with the co-parenting handbook, if someone is thinking about separating and divorcing, that's the first book I'd pick up to listen to or read.

 

49:27

because it's going to really give you a view on the territory. Yeah. Well, I think that's such a great idea just to help people feel prepared for going into those. It's going to be huge transitional times. That's exactly right. And you can do this, right? I want people to know you can do this. Yeah, that's great.

 

49:50

Good. And can you mention your website? I know your books are on there. They can probably, I'm sure they can find them on Amazon and everything. Yeah, they can find them on Amazon or any bookstore actually at this point. They're even the book just came out in Japanese. So I mean, you know, for your Japanese listeners, they want to do it in their own language. That's great. Yeah. And it's Spanish, Greek and Japanese now. Yeah. So my website is my name and it's KarenSBonnell.com.

 

50:20

All right. Thank you so much, Karen. Thank you to all you listeners out there. I'm so grateful for all of you. And if you're enjoying the show, I'd really appreciate if you leave a rating or a review wherever you listen to the show. It really helps other people with a similar interest be able to find the show. So I'm so grateful for all of you. Thank you. I'm Shane Birkel, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And this is The Couples Therapist Couch. Thanks, everybody!