235: The 5 Forces Destroying Your Relationship with Dr. Pat Love
Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Pat Love about The 5 Forces Destroying Your Relationship. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.
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The Couples Therapist Couch 235: The 5 Forces Destroying Your Relationship with Dr. Pat Love
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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Pat Love about The 5 Forces Destroying Your Relationship. Pat is an acclaimed therapist, speaker, and author of several books who has been a clinical practitioner of marriage and family therapy for over 40 years. Hear what’s important when selecting a mate, why true love takes time, how to help your clients when their emotions get flooded, how to navigate financial stress, and why fairness is so crucial to the success of a relationship. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
- The characteristics that distinguish date and mate qualities
- What are the 3 big indicators of relationship longevity?
- Why love is not enough for a fulfilling relationship?
- Why true love makes infatuation pale by comparison
- The reasons equity works, but equality leads to divorce
To learn more about Dr. Pat Love, visit:
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
Show Notes
- 235: The 5 Forces Destroying Your Relationship with Dr. Pat Love
- [0:59] Welcome to The Couple's Therapist Couch
- [2:04] Introducing Dr. Pat Love
- [4:16] What goes on during mate selection?
- [10:02] What are the 3 big indicators of relationship longevity?
- [15:23] Why true love makes infatuation pale by comparison
- [17:21] How do things go wrong?
- [20:37] Take a look at your underlying security system
- [23:14] What to do when one client gets emotionally flooded?
- [27:39] How to deal with partners who do not cooperate with financial security?
- [29:29] What is the presenting conflict and how to find the underlying issue?
- [34:26] The difference between equity and equality in relationships
- [39:09] Relational thinking vs. Lateral thinking
- [42:04] Flexibility is need to make a relationship last
- [43:39] Is your relationship alive?
What is The Couples Therapist Couch?
This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.
Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/
Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new
Transcript
Please note: This transcript is not 100% accurate.
00:00
I remember one of my colleagues fell in love and she said, you know what I love about this guy? We don't have to spend money. He just comes over to my house and he's just perfectly happy. Just watching me clean and cook and do things. he sits there with a smile on his face. You know, six months later, she was like, we never go anywhere. All he does is come over and I do all the work.
00:28
and activity, different drugs.
00:35
to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.
00:51
Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed therapist and I try to bring you the best in the world of couples therapy. As you might be able to tell, I am having a hard time speaking right now. I completely lost my voice last week and it's coming back. It's actually a lot better than it was before, but I'm going to keep this nice and brief.
01:21
I'm bringing you another one from the archives this week. If you missed the one last week, shared an interview with Emily Nagoski, which was an amazing interview. And this week I'm excited to share with you an episode that I did with Dr. Pat Love. And she talks about the five forces that are destroying your relationship. So another amazing episode and let's just dive right in. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the couples therapist couch.
01:49
This is Shane Burkle and today I am speaking with Dr. Pat Love. Hi Pat, welcome to the show. Hi Shane, I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I'm so excited to talk with you. We have a couple of great topics that we're going to be talking about, but why don't you start off by just telling the audience a little bit about yourself? Well, I started out as a graduate professor teaching marriage and family therapy. I was one of the few people who earned tenure and then quit.
02:17
I to Austin Texas, co-founded the Austin Family Institute where we continued to train, supervise, do therapy, workshops, somehow got into writing books and moved on to more of a consultant role, although I have had a continuous private practice now for 40 years.
02:40
and am a licensed marriage and family therapist and long-standing member of clinical member and approved supervisor in the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy. Yeah. So that's it in a nutshell. Well, and you've written what? think I was reading six books, is that right? Yeah, I think on seven now. Yeah. On seven? Great. Yeah. I just published an ebook and that's what we're going to talk about today. Oh, great. What is the title of that? I think I have it, but.
03:10
Yes, Five Forces, Destroying Your Relationship, you probably never heard of. Great, great. What a great title. And I was just looking through, you had another book, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, which I feel like is such a great title. It's so important for people because oftentimes we feel like we're waiting for our partner to change for us to
03:39
be able to be happy in our relationship. And that's sort of not a very empowering way to feel. Well, it's really true. And I think a lot of my message is about, you know, one person changes the system because if I'm anything, I'm a systems thinker and the systems theorist. And what you're going to hear come out of my mouth has a lot to do with research and clinical application of research.
04:08
and it's all gonna fit into a systems model. That's great. Yeah, and so let's start with when people begin to select their mate. know you have some really good things to say about that, so maybe we should start there. I'd love to start there because I did a thorough review of the literature and looked at mate selection qualities. What became so evident is that
04:36
There are three categories of characteristics, and we often don't think of them as distinct. There are characteristics that make us, you know, for dating, mating, but then those for relating. Those characteristics are very different. For example, most everyone knows what attracts you to another person. know, first of all, physical attractiveness. Some call it chemistry.
05:03
If you find out that person is interested in you or engaged, you know, if they stay engaged, if they maintain contact or eye contact, people who are generous within their means, that's impressive when you're dating, you want someone to be romantic, and also to have some level of commitment, whether it's exclusivity or just showing up on time. And by the way, a new criteria.
05:32
that's gone to the top of the list when it comes to dating, those characteristics that we look for in a date is intellect. In the past decade, intelligence has moved to the top of the stack when it comes to looking for a partner. And that's an initial experience of swiping right or swiping left or does this person look smart and when I meet her or when I meet him,
06:02
Do they appear intelligent? I've heard clients talk about and friends talk about, well, you ought to see the misspellings even in their text or, you know, I can't believe the grammar in their email. And so we're really now looking for intelligence. But these are all characteristics that give us that initial interest, get us to sort of focus on one person.
06:31
Infatuation, which is a time-limited experience and a time-limited stage, is designed to get us to laser beam on one specific partner. mean, ideally, long enough to meet, mate, and procreate, right? Or raise healthy offspring. And so that's a focus on one partner for a period of time. But those are not necessarily the characteristics that make us
07:01
You may want to date a really sexy person or a really attractive person, but you want more than that if you're looking at choosing exclusivity or commitment or choosing this person as a mate over the long haul. And the mating characteristics look different. We want to know, well, do they get along with their family? Do I fit into their family? Do they have...
07:27
Hiking habits or living habits or lifestyle habits that can be conducive with mine. Is this a person? You would even want as a roommate, you know, what's their home life like? Also, are they able to make a secure attachment? You know, can they show up tune in understand and then act congruently when it comes to
07:53
understanding you and relating to you. So that attachment is more what the relating or the second stage of a relationship. Infatuation happens and you can't make it happen. A lot of times friendships turn into infatuations if you hang in there long enough. I think that fact is often overlooked. think a lot of good people get overlooked as dates and mates.
08:21
because the other individual gives up on them too soon. Because a lot of the best romantic relationships start off as friendships. And friendships really have to do with that mating quality. Like, are you a good match socially? Are you a good match religiously, spiritually? And here's another one, sort of a sleeper thing. Does this person expand your life? Does this person make your life
08:50
better and bigger and make you a better person. Life expansion is a great predictor about make value, not just date value, but make value. We want someone who makes us, you know, best that we can be. And so all of these ideas and these characteristics, which are somewhat distinct from those that attract us initially, are important. You know, are we compatible? Is there respect? Is there fun in this relationship?
09:20
Is this a person who knows how to be a couple? So this pairing experience, you know, can they act like a couple is also important. And then there are three last characteristics. Falling in love is one thing, but 80 % of couples who divorce and separate say, we still love each other. So love isn't enough. And even if you're a good person, it can't be enough. So what are those characteristics?
09:50
that predict longevity. And there are three simple characteristics that predict longevity. And one of them is agreeableness. You know, doesn't, probably no coincidence that it makes what is it, the five characteristics of a mature person. I mean, can you get along with each other? Can you get along with other people? Agreeableness, kindness, and the big one.
10:19
And this is another one of the characteristics of truity and that is emotional regulation. Because if you cannot, you know, self-soothe, manage your emotions in a mature way, if you don't have the ability to cheer yourself up and calm yourself down, no matter what is happening, ultimately doesn't mean you don't get mad. don't get, doesn't mean you don't get sad or grieve or mourn or disappointed or, you know, you know, have a
10:47
temper tantrum every now and then. it means ultimately you alone can bring yourself back to a regulated stage. I wanted to start with those because if you're looking at criteria for choosing a maid, it's not just about dating. It's not just about mating. It's about, you want this relationship to be able to go the second line? Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And it makes you more thoughtful.
11:17
All of these things you're describing, hopefully all of us know couples who have been this considerate when they were choosing their partner and are having a, you know, fulfilling long lasting relationship. But I'm wondering where it goes wrong. Like, cause I know there are a lot of couples that we end up seeing in our offices in therapy who may not have been quite as conscious when they were starting dating someone.
11:45
Right. And I think part of it is because we're so blinded by the dating characteristics. And if you don't wait long enough, know, infatuation can last three to six months, that's the average, but it can go up to two years. So that's why spending time together before you make a permanent commitment bodes well for longevity and happiness because
12:13
Once that infatuation wears off, then you're seeing more clearly and you're having more experience and then you begin to see, oh, wait a minute, I don't fit in this family. I don't feel respected. There is no respect. My partner doesn't act like a partner when she's away. She acts single and she makes unilateral decisions that don't include me. So you begin to see these characteristics when you're together long enough.
12:43
And then, course, it takes you a long time to understand if it's an agreeable person, a kind person, and if they can regulate their emotions. Because in the beginning, we all look like we're agreeable, kind, and just so happy that we're in good mood all the time. Right, right. But that wears off. You and I know that wears off. So that's why staying together
13:10
and waiting until you're somewhat older, you know, when you're a better judge and have more experience. The dating, I think dating is a really important experience because you begin to recognize what infatuation feels like and how you can talk yourself in and out of personal, you know, very reasonable decisions during that stage because you literally cannot process negative.
13:39
information about your partner. If I say, about the fact he's a practicing alcoholic, has never worked and has seven kids? And you say, we'll work him out. He's not that way with me. You know, I know I can be of help to him. So you can't process that. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that's, I feel like so helpful for people to consider as they're getting into a relationship that, um,
14:08
with all those things that they're feeling, whether it's the first six months or it could be a little bit more variable, that that is not necessarily, it's good to take your time, right? To make sure that, to see what happens after you've been with someone for a year or you continue to be someone with someone for a couple years. The line I hear myself saying to my clients is enjoy it, record it, know, journal it. Have a great time.
14:37
just don't make a permanent decision in this state. And you know, and I like, like many of us, you know, I've had, I had my therapist for years and I have clients I've had for years and they can sit and they begin to see the pattern. And so if you can just keep from making a life altering decision in that state, then you can enjoy it because it is delicious. It is wonderful. And you get a little prototype about
15:07
what relationships can be like because here's the good news. People who stay together and have what I call vintage love or mature love or long-term love or whatever have been through the struggles, have been past the romantic love stage will tell you true love makes infatuation pale by comparison. They just say, don't even aspire to that now. I realize how much anxiety was in that stage, how much in...
15:34
certainty. Yes, it was fine. Yes, we had a great time, but this, this is what I long for that, I'm more and this is, we're talking here about not just fun, but attachment, true attachment. Those include the qualities of mating as well as longevity. Yeah, that's great. And I feel like there's so much of this relationship education that's missing for people. It's so normalizing for people to hear whatever they're going through.
16:04
is to be expected and okay. that it doesn't mean that, you know, we should, we don't have to bring so much judgment to it. Exactly. And, and, and to, and to their credit, you know, I just gave you a thumbnail sketch of what took months and months and months of reading. Yeah, that was fantastic. You know, I'm just gleaning the characteristics and trying to put it into almost a sound bite. This is a book that'll be coming out this year. So,
16:34
It will be in a book form and many podcasts and ebooks and you know, it'll be available to people because this mate selection really excites me because if you start off with a viable mate, it's going to make the relationship so much easier and so much more rewarding. And I've hesitated because people say, well, then just throw away your mate and get a new one. Well, I'm not saying that.
17:04
because you'll hear after our next discussion, you know, how and why this can happen. You know, it can get into trouble, but also how you can fix it. Yeah, great. And so let's, let's get into that. How do these things like, you know, is part of it that people hang on for too long and they don't
17:27
recognize the issues or what are the things as people have been together two, three, four years that they start noticing when things aren't going well? Okay, two to three, four years. That usually means the infatuation has worn off. You're out of the altered state of consciousness and now you're seeing with eyes more clear. So when issues happen in the first two or three years,
17:57
I just go, okay, you're on a normal track and you've now entered that second stage of love, which is post rapture. just call it post-repture. then they start questioning, well, the characteristics were generally speaking always there, but you put a positive spin on them. You know, I remember one of my colleagues fell in love and she said, know what I love about this guy?
18:26
We don't have to spend money. He just comes over to my house and he's just perfectly happy. Just watching me clean and cook and do things. he just sits there with a smile on his face. You know, six months later, she was like, we never go anywhere. All he does is come over and I do all the work. It's like the same activity, different drugs, right? Right. Right. Yeah.
18:54
In the early years when there are issues, then I just say, you, you know, welcome, you know, welcome to the second speech of love and let's start to look at what the issues are and what the issues usually mean is what you're arguing about probably isn't what you're arguing about. What you're going silent about probably isn't what you're going silent about. And so
19:24
I try as a helper to get beneath the presenting issue and look at the system. And that's how I came up. And this again was a lot of research, many, many months of research to say, okay, what are the underlying systemic forces that if not aligned correctly can cause us to go to therapy
19:53
Work real hard, feel good for six hours when you come out, and the next week it's like it never happened. You you've had that experience because validation, know, validation at last about four hours. It feels really good to be heard, to have your partner say, get it, I understand, this is why you're upset. You know, make a plan, make a behavior change request, come up with a list.
20:22
us to do better, even do better, and then it doesn't get better. So what went wrong? And so the first place to look is at your underlying security system. Well, what do I mean about your underlying security system? First of all, are you physically secure? In other words, are you there? You know, I mentioned just rattled off the criteria.
20:52
for secure attachment and the very first criteria for secure attachment is you gotta show up. Are you a couple that doesn't really spend enough time together? And I'm talking time where you're present with each other to even have a secure relationship because attachment requires you to show up. That means you gotta be there physically.
21:19
You may have a long distance relationship, but you better come up with a ritual, you know, whether it's FaceTime or Skype or Zoom or whatever you use. And you have to have that face-to-face contact on a regular basis, the hope of it. You have to be texting, you know, be in contact. Because showing up is just the first step. Tuning in is the second one. And tuning in, it really is a tunement.
21:48
And attunement sounds, you know, simple. Okay, I'm listening. Well, there's a big difference between listening and hearing. You know, we're always hearing. We don't have ear lids. So even if you're asleep, you're hearing. conscious people can hear, you know, people in a medical coma, you know, we know that a lot of them can hear even when you're having surgery. Some people say, be careful what the surgeon said because you can hear. So we're always hearing.
22:18
Listening is your brain saying, focus on this. It's salient, it's important, and it is vital enough to get my full attention. That's listening. So tuning in not just requires listening, but you have to regulate your emotion so that you truly can hear. Because if you're flooded,
22:44
you're paying attention to your own experience, not your partner. Does that make sense? Right. Well, I think I'm going to give an example. Tell me if this is part of what you're talking about or not. Okay. But, you know, oftentimes when we're, say when we're working with a couple in our office that both people are, are escalated and trying to feel heard. And it's like, both people are like, aren't you listening to me? But no one's actually listening to each other.
23:13
They're both just kind of in panic mode. Yes. Yes. They're flooded. And when one person gets flooded, then because of emotional contagion, everybody in the room gets flooded, including the therapist. So that's why we have to really be trained. But lot of our training teaches us to regulate our emotions while we focus on the other person.
23:42
And I don't know about you, but as a therapist, I often have to calm myself and do maybe even, you know, reflecting the client is saying, or just call time and just say, okay, I'm getting flooded. might even say, wait a minute. I'm touching. I'm feeling overwhelmed or whatever it does to bring you back to that adult state because sending in or attunement requires emotional regulation and focus. And
24:12
That's why this attachment, which is part of security, if you never get your partner's full attention, if you never feel his presence, her presence, and I mean truly present, because when someone is attuned to you, it can move you to tears if you haven't had it for long time. mean, they really tune in, and when they tune in, then they can understand you. And they, oh.
24:42
But that isn't enough to form a secure attachment. The fourth step of secure attachment, which forms that basic security is their behavior has to be congruent with their understanding of you. know, if you know I'm allergic to roses and you bring me roses, that's incongruent. You know, haven't been paying attention. And those moments...
25:10
where your partner knows you so well that she just, her behavior shows you that she knows you so well. I have a just a beautiful example, if I can tell it without crying, because I went through a very huge tragic loss in my family. And the year recalling after that loss, my introvert husband just quietly started
25:37
moving me into very gentle social situations, which had always been my role to create social calendar and, you know, to make time with friends and to entertain. That's always been my role. It's never been his role. And in retrospect, I realized he just gently started doing that without making a big deal out of it. Now, that is about showing up
26:06
in understanding and acting congruently. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. And if you don't have that, you're never going to feel secure. And when you don't feel secure, there are no small issues. Everything will flood you because remember, humans, we're not the smartest animal necessarily. We're not the fastest. We're not the strongest.
26:35
But we have two big advantages. One is we have a big brain. It's a great brain. It's amazing brain. But the second is we help each other. And you say, know, monkeys are smart, but you can't put 100,000 monkeys in a soccer stadium and expect them to watch the game, you know? We cooperate. help each other. And so if you don't have somebody who's on your side, in your corner, being a helpmate,
27:02
That doesn't feel secure and that takes attunement. And so there are no small issues because you never really feel safe. You're getting flooded all the time. And then there's an emotional security. mean, someone who criticizes, draws, Gottman's Four Horsemen is contemptuous, is defensive. Someone who blows up in anger, that's not emotionally safe for you because you're walking on eggshells.
27:31
Also, here's a big one. People who do not cooperate in making your unit financially secure. We don't say enough about this in therapy. 71 % of couples say they're under financial stress. Greatest predictor of domestic violence is unemployment or underemployment. I mean, when you look at the fact that 25 % of people in the United States have no money in the bank,
28:00
are just living from paycheck to paycheck and one mishap can put you in debt. We can go on and on and on about the security and the terror that comes and I grew up poor. So I can tell you financial insecurity has a terror all its own. And if you have a partner that is not cooperating,
28:27
and keeping you financially, fiscally secure, there's an anxiety that just never goes away. That's a really big issue with a lot of couples that never gets discussed, never gets discussed. And that's a part of that underlying system because sometimes what you're arguing about is not what you're arguing about. You think your partner's being cheap around the holidays and...
28:54
doesn't love the family because he or she won't, you know, no, they may be thinking about the January bills and how much anxiety and shame and stress that's going to cause. And that stress affects the relationship. Can you go a little bit more into detail about what that might look? Cause you're, you, that was a really good example. But, um, as far as like what, uh, the presenting issue might look like.
29:24
And what it means, you've just explained this really well, this foundation of what all the things that factor into the underlying system. But what does that look like in real time when we see it in our office as far as helping people get more to that underlying stuff? Yes. Well, like for example, that physical security is, your partner stay at work or when she's home, is she really
29:52
preoccupied with work. So there's no presence. When do you have time for attachment? So that would be a real life example. Another person, like emotional security, what if your partner gets a bigger emotional thrill charge chemistry reaction to a co-worker's text than your text? And so they're having this private chat.
30:21
in the evening with repartee or they've already processed the better part of their day with a co-worker, with their work spouse, so to speak, instead of with you. Or another example would be, you know, this spending example is a great one. Or it could be that it could be the flip side of that, that a person is so fearful that they won't even spend money.
30:49
you know because they're so fearful about you know the person the saver versus the spender but they think that you don't respect me you know they turn it into respect i've had it i've had couples in my office that well you'll spend money on your mother but you won't spend money on on me you know you you've even had this big party for your mother but you didn't have this party for me i mean i actually in the book i wish i'd i wish i'd gotten it in front of me i gave
31:17
exactly what you're talking about. You think you're arguing about respect, but the truth is you don't hear the budget that we've designed several, several times. So it starts to feel like that you're not respecting our relationship and you're not respecting me because you make a promise that you don't keep. And then we're not even talking about jealousy, which is that you give more time and attention
31:48
to someone else and they get the best of your personality. And what I get is a couch potato when you come home. I mean, that doesn't feel secure. Or you go to a party and your partner just leaves and never checks on you, never checks in with you, doesn't even act like you're there. Or you see pictures on social media of your partner at a party that
32:16
you realize you weren't even invited to because you weren't included. so these are examples that show up in the office that oftentimes what you're arguing about is not what you're arguing about because you think you don't really respect me. Well, what does that look like? It could mean that you're never home. Or you tell me you're going to be home at a certain time and you're not. Or when you are home,
32:43
everybody else gets your attention. It could be the kids, could be the computer, could be work calls, it could be talking on the phone with one of your friends or family members. without that attunement, and again, what I've designed in the book is a lot of assessment devices so that you can actually look at how am I doing in each of these areas.
33:13
because it's easy to see what your partner's not doing, but not always so easy to see what I'm not doing, you know, and what you're not doing. So. Yeah. I feel like the attunement is about the, the meaning that I'm making up about something in my head is different than the meaning that you're making up in your head. We could just go in circles all day long about, know, here's why I want to be a saver. And then you're saying, here's why you want to be a spender. Both things have validity.
33:41
But it doesn't get people very far unless they can get to some of these underlying, I guess a lot of it's related to attachment stuff and emotional security that's underneath what's really going on in the conversation they think they're having. And it gets fleshed out when you start looking at the other four systems, for example, equitability, equitable. Does this relationship
34:11
feel fair. know, what I hear, especially if I have a couple in my office where one makes more money than the other, they often feel like, I make the money, I should be the one that should be able to spend it the way I want to. But equitable, you know, it doesn't mean equal. You know, I think this is where we got hungry. If you're trying to get every single day to be equal,
34:38
then what that does, it makes you a scorekeeper. Scorekeeping actually correlates with divorce and separation, but fairness doesn't. So scorekeeping is always biased in the direction of the scorekeeper. So I know what I'm doing. Truthfully, I don't always know what you're doing. And so that's why we don't want to talk about equality. We talk about in the big scheme of things, does this feel
35:08
because for example, a lot of the emotional work that's done in relationships and that means keeping up with family, keeping peace with the family, know, liking the social engagements, remembering in people's birthdays, making sure the kids are comforted, making sure your partner feels supported.
35:34
A lot of the emotional work that takes time and effort and energy and can be exhausting and can be trying gets no points when you just try to look at, well, I make the money, what do you do? What do you do all day? Well, a lot of that emotional work takes time and energy and it's always underrated. So you can't look at equality. It's not apples and oranges, what we give to relationships.
36:03
You know, but in the big scheme of things, does this feel fair? You does it feel fair that we both have jobs, but when one comes home, you get to watch, you know, World Cup soccer, and the other one is doing all the work that faces you when you walk in the door. And we know that that's becoming more fair, you know, between the two genders.
36:30
But we also know we've learned a lot from gay and lesbian couples, which is it has to feel fair all the time. And we've learned about we have to oftentimes give up even those old gender roles, which we have a lot. But you'd be surprised at what the research says. For example, here's a good research study that when women, if you're in a heterosexual relationship and women make more money,
37:00
they actually statistically are less equitable or sharing with the joint couple and the male spouse that men have been traditionally in the past. So when you start looking at equitability and fairness, I guess the question is in the big scheme of things, does this feel
37:27
fair to both of us because I say the best relationships are the ones where you secretly tell your best friend, can't believe this guy loves me. I can't believe this gal loves me. That you feel like you've got such a good deal. And that's what we strive for. We want that. The other thing is this underlying system has to be based upon a relational system, a relational
37:57
set up, which means that each individual is aware that any decision affects not just me, but my partner and my relationship. That I think like a couple, where it feels so threatening is when your partner makes a unilateral decision that affects you
38:25
or affects your relationship, affects the money in your relationship or your time or your energy or your role and you didn't have input. And it doesn't mean that you want to control me. It means you want to be honored and respected and included. Because if I act single when I'm not with you, if I think single in my mind,
38:52
then that's very different than attunement. That's very different than attachment because relational thinking looks and acts different about, you know, when it comes to unilateral thinking. You know, it's not just, do I feel sexual desire? Does my partner feel sexual desire? Right. And what's my role in making that happen?
39:18
that I may, you know, I may, and this may be my preference for sexual frequency, but what was my partner's, you know, need? And also, here's the big question, what's best for our relationship? I mean, that's just a bottom line good question to see how relationship oriented you are. You know, what's best for our relationship? What's best for making our holiday plan? How do we make that?
39:47
so that it's relational. And again, back to that example of going to an office party where your partner knows just about everybody and you don't know anybody, does your partner think what's it like for you to step into a place? I was in a conversation just last night with friends and was talking about all they talked about was old times.
40:14
and I wasn't even a part of those old times. And we were sitting around in a relatively small group, you know, of five people, and they never asked me a personal question, never asked, well, that's not relational thinking. And so your partner, while he or she might be enjoying that, you know, has in a way a sensitivity, we want them to have a sensitivity to what that's like for you. And that's somewhat of a trivial example
40:44
but you can see how it gets played out time and time and time again over the holidays. And when you get together with people and you're not included and your partner does nothing to include you, because in many ways it's your partner's role to actually usher you into his or her family and to make that as pleasant as possible. And to say, this is my partner, this person,
41:11
part of me so when you accept me you accept him you accept her and to make that and to advocate for you that's relational because you haven't to advocate for yourself in a group of strangers or even in a family that may or may not have you know approved of the match to begin with is an uphill battle so that relational thinking often is what people are arguing about I don't
41:41
feel included in your life. I think it could be a huge deal for people. It's just something you don't notice it at first and it's small, but it just takes a toll over time. Over time. the other underlying system that's always shown up ever since I started studying relationships and relationship research, flexibility is always a predictor of healthy family functioning. And that means that
42:09
You can be flexible about the roles you play, the responsibilities you take over. You know, my husband taking over the social calendar is a great example of flexibility. Also, your expectations may have to change. You know, when your financial situation changes, if you can't adjust to that, I had a lot of couples when I first moved to Austin, we were going through a recession. And several of the couples came in because
42:38
It was heterosexual couples or could have been gay or lesbian where one would stay at home and one was breadwinner. And they needed both people to work. And there was a lot of conflict around that because they couldn't be flexible and say, no, you told me I'd never have to work another day in my life and you lied. Well, no, he didn't lie. He was telling the truth at the time, but he lost his business and you have a degree and you have a great professional record.
43:08
Can you act relationally? Can you be flexible? Oh, health issues, disabilities. know, life is going to bring you changes, so can you be flexible? And the last underlying system, and this one doesn't often get enough play, is is your relationship system alive? Does it lack sexual interest or passion of any type? Is it responsive? Is it spontaneous?
43:37
Because this life expansion, that one I mentioned earlier, innate selection, it has a high correlation with infidelity. If you lack aliveness, if you lack life expansion, and life expansion doesn't have to be just sexual, it can be, what do you bring to the table? Is it enjoyable to live with you? Is there an energy that you get between the two of you that creates synergy?
44:06
because in that way you feel like you're not alone in life. And I think that's basically why we want to be in relationships. Yeah, this is great. I think I got lost on the first two. Is the first one secure attachment? Well, it's security. can be physical. could be emotional. If financial, it's, you know, being faithful. All of that is security. Then it needs to be fair or equitable. Okay, great. needs to be fair.
44:36
And also we have to be relational, conjoint thinking. If we're going to be a couple, we need to be thinking conjointly. And then the fourth one is flexibility. Can you roll with life's changes? Can you roll with the punches, so to speak? Can you change if you have to downsize? Because we can't afford the taxes on this house anymore. We can't afford to live here anymore. My job is going to move us.
45:04
or the kids need a better school or can you be flexible? And then do we put effort into making this relationship alive? Is it enjoyable? Is it fun? Fun is such a great predictor of compatibility as well as staying together. You know, something I appreciate so much about the way you're talking about this is the positive frame. It's like teaching people what
45:32
makes a healthy relationship. mean, I think that we're good at, like you mentioned the four horsemen or the five losing strategies. Those are all great. I love those kinds of things, but it's like describing what's wrong in the relationship. think we do plenty of that and sometimes it's helpful, but I also think it's so important the way that you're talking about this, which is what do you, what do we need to teach people? What would be the positive relationship things that
46:02
there would be more of if the relationship were feeling more connected. And so this, I really like that about the way you're talking about this. Well, Shane, you're really pointing out, I think two really important facts. Problems always get our attention faster and with more intensity because they're designed to alert us to safety. So the human brain is going to go for the sensational. It's going to go for the crazy.
46:29
the craziness, you know, that we see in the news and, and we're, it's going to go toward the problem solving, but there are symptoms of underlying issues in the system. And I think that's the point I'm trying to make. So if we start shoring up our underlying systems, the symptoms will go away. Yeah. And I think it's good to recognize, you know, growing up in our families, growing up in our culture,
46:56
Most of us don't get this education about what would make a good relationship. And so it's good to normalize that and tell people, look, it makes sense that you would know this, there's a, here's some really, a really good framework for what is going to make your relationship feel or make you feel like you're getting a lot more of what you want from your relationship. Yeah. This is so helpful. Yeah. Thank you so much, Pat. Such a wonderful name that you have for this.
47:25
I know it's my room. That's great. Great. Well, thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you came on here today. I will hopefully we can connect at some point again in the future. Love to do it. Love to do it. All right. Thank you so much to Dr. Pat Love. Thank you to all you listeners out there. As I mentioned at the beginning, having a hard time with my voice right now, but it's coming back. It's feeling a lot better and hoping to get a bunch of new interviews out there for you.
47:55
as of next week. Thank you so much for listening. can definitely go over and join the Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group. Check out the CouplesTherapistCouch.com. I look forward to sharing the next interview with you next week. Thanks everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch. Bye, everybody!