236: Trauma Bonds with Dr. Laura Copley

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Laura Copley about trauma bonds. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 236: Trauma Bonds with Dr. Laura Copley

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Laura Copley about trauma bonds. Laura is a trauma therapist, international speaker, and author of the relationship self-help book, Loving You Is Hurting Me. Hear the stigma around trauma bonds & toxic relationships, how trauma bonds work, how to help your clients face their fears, the similarities between trauma bonds & addiction, and how to give hope to your clients’ relationships. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• Why Dr. Copley gets pushback from some peers
• How trauma bonding can exist outside of the abuser/victim dynamic
• What to do when clients try to use old patterns to create new outcomes
• The addictive nature of trauma responses
• How Dr. Copley reclaims toxic relationships

To learn more about Dr. Laura Copley, visit:

Loving You Is Hurting Me on Amazon

Loving You Is Hurting Me on Barnes & Noble

Instagram @DocCopley

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

Show Notes

• 236: Trauma Bonds with Dr. Laura Copley
• [0:00] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:59] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch
• [1:29] Introducing Dr. Laura Copley
• [5:05] Dr. Copley experiences pushback about exploring toxic relationships
• [6:22] How Dr. Copley defines trauma bonds
• [10:22] Why trauma is not individual work
• [13:54] Why do they call it a trauma bond?
• [17:20] The addictive nature of trauma
• [18:34] Visit helloalma.com/atpp to spend less time on admin work and more time offering great care to your clients
• [19:34] Redefining toxic relationships
• [23:25] Even when clients know that some impulses are tied to attachment wounds, it's hard to admit being wrong
• [27:11] How does Dr. Copley approach her practice, what modalities does she prioritize?
• [29:12] The 3-part structure of Dr. Copley's book
• [32:18] The importance of post-traumatic growth
• [34:04] Dr. Copley's process for dealing with highly antagonistic couples who come in
• [39:39] Connect with Dr. Laura Copley! 
• [39:40] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: This transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

It's not just our attachment styles that are at play here. It's our trauma that's getting reactivated and we're creating this chasing dynamic that is reenacting these old trauma wounds.

 

00:18

The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:33

Hey everybody. Welcome back to Tthe Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:03

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Dr. Laura Copley, therapist, educator and author of the book, Loving You Is Hurting Me. Hey Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

 

01:29

Yeah, definitely. I'm excited to talk to you about the book, but why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? I.  Own my own trauma informed group practice in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. I have been doing work related to trauma bonds and toxic relationships for the good part of a decade and some of the things that I enjoy around the field.  I love leading training. Some of the things that I like to do with other clinicians is help them.

 

01:58

get more experience and more education and more insight into my approach.  I also  am a recurring faculty at the Psychotherapy Networkers Symposium.  I'm gonna be at the American Counseling Association Annual Expo down in Florida next month. So for those counselors that go to ACA, I'm gonna be down there, say hi. Buy the book, I'll be there signing books. So yeah.

 

02:25

I have a little girl, she's gonna be six years old in March. I'm also pregnant with baby number two that is due very soon. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. I think my area of expertise is just  learning about how there is this,  there's the stigma out there, I believe  on trauma bonds and toxic relationships that are always held between an abuser and a victim.

 

02:54

And I see this dynamic playing out  over and over again in couples and  even in individuals that want to come talk to me about their relationships.  And we have this stigma that it has to be about the perpetrator and then somebody else who has been victimized.  And while that dynamic 100 % exists,  I'm not discounting that there are absolutely abusive and dangerous relationships out there.

 

03:23

I feel like we're doing an injustice to individuals who  have these,  what I call these more mild to moderate trauma bonding dynamics. And what I see is quite often we have two individuals with two different upbringings and two different attachment trauma histories finding each other and they're reenacting and playing out these dynamics in

 

03:50

painful ways. They are not connecting in safe and secure ways.  They're connecting through  fear and pain.  And what I try to do is I give these individuals an opportunity to have corrective experiences in their relationships,  as opposed to labeling each one  as  we need to cut this off. This is over.  He's an artist. She's crazy. Like it's over.  There's very little hope, right? When

 

04:20

if we start to define it as like a perpetrator and a victim, then why would you want to  be in a loving relationship with someone who you feel like is your perpetrator? So I love the way that you're saying that, right? It's a much more nuanced approach and we can still point out bad behavior, I'm assuming. But  at the same time, you know, we're opening up the possibility for healing instead of just sort of, you know, putting blinders on and saying,

 

04:47

this is wrong, this is a black and white situation or something like that. Yes. And I do get some pushback in our community because what I have to say, it can feel dangerous to say, Hey, let's, let's lean in to exploring this a little bit more to, um, creating the possibility for corrective healing experiences  because there's such the stigma and such the message  of these  evil perpetrators  and

 

05:16

individuals who are experts in that level of the trauma bond are 1 million percent needed. And I think there is a fear of opening up the dialogue that not every relationship is reaching that level. And without this message, we're doing an injustice. So I think the majority of what we call toxic, quote unquote, toxic relationships, I think there's room for both messaging.

 

05:44

And I think we need to be careful around not telling legitimate victims  who are being abused to, we have to be careful about not communicating that they should stay longer.  100 % believe in that.  But it happens too frequently that people are being labeled in these dire,  unforgiving labels.  And I want to make sure that we do them.

 

06:11

the service that our community needs to provide them as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm really interested maybe to take a step back and talk about some definitions.  Because I feel like these words are thrown around a lot. You didn't bring up this one, but  I feel like the word abuse is thrown around a lot or like emotional abuse, you know,  where people are like, well, you're being emotionally abusive. And like, yeah, that's probably true. And all of us probably have been at some point.

 

06:38

When we're talking about abuse as something that's hurtful to another human being, know, all of us have probably done something hurtful to another human being, whether we meant to or not. And I think that there's a huge difference between a situation where somebody is intentionally being hurtful versus where two people are stuck in a dynamic where both people end up feeling really hurt and they don't know how to communicate and they don't have the skills. Anyway,  I'm curious to hear your

 

07:08

you know, start with some of your definitions about trauma bonds and toxic relationships as a starting point. Right. So when I define trauma bond, I am not defining it as a relationship between a victim and abuser. And if you walk down the aisle of Barnes and Noble or Books a Million or whatever's in your area and you go into the self-help, self-improvement section and you're looking for books related to this, you will find the majority of those books.

 

07:37

are about abuser and victim dynamics. My book is a little bit different because I expand it to represent a trauma bond exists on a continuum where two individuals are replicating attachment  patterns,  their own dysfunction, their fear-based maladaptive coping mechanisms.  They're reacting out of fear.

 

08:07

and trying to actually access  the connection that they're deeply longing for. They want to be in relationships, but they only know how to connect out of fear as opposed to security and trust and genuine love.  And when we act out of fear, we act out of pain. When we act out of pain, we cause pain. So  I say trauma bonds are, let's flip the words a little bit. We were bonded through our trauma.

 

08:35

We're triggering each other.  And if you are familiar with some of even Sue Johnson's work in emotion focused therapy with that pursuer withdrawal dynamic, she was catching onto this  decades ago.  But really what we see now is adding a little bit of that trauma informed language. These are attachment traumas playing out.  And when we can lean in and actually validate that your

 

09:03

out in this way because it's the only way that you were taught how to keep yourself safe. All of a sudden  this relaxation or this  ease falls into the person because now we're not telling them that they're bad and evil. We're telling them, you're a survivor and there's something that you had to do in your childhood in order to get by.

 

09:31

mapping out that psycho education is a doorway into, all right, I'll start to actually take accountability now because now you're not saying that I'm this bad guy. You're saying that I like that you get me. Yeah. Okay. I'll do the work. Cool. Right. And there's some reason why it makes sense that you're responding in the way that you are. People feel really validated to hear that, right? It's not because you're a bad person. And I, and I feel like there's this perspective of

 

09:59

trauma work being a very individualized process, which is true in some cases,  and maybe every case, but at the same time, there's something that's so valuable about seeing it in the context of a relationship and perhaps bringing more of that to couples therapy. I don't know what you think about that.  think trauma has the immediate, there's the immediate assumption that it's an individual's work.

 

10:25

But trauma can only happen through the lens of you versus something else.  Even if it's you versus a natural disaster, it's you versus something else.  I come from more of an interpersonal trauma, attachment trauma lens, couples work, intergenerational work. So I focus more on trauma at the hands  of another human being. But  I think trauma,

 

10:54

looking at it  always or at least 99 % of the time through the lens of our relationship to something is  Vital, I don't understand how it could be how it could just be your individual work Unless we bring in some concepts around your safety in relation to something else your relationship to men your relationship to food

 

11:23

your relationship to larger groups,  whatever it is, it's relationship work. Yeah, and like, if I'm struggling in my relationship, and then I go do individual trauma work, and I'm like, Oh, I feel great. This is,  you know, really working. Everything's fine. And then but then I have to go back into that relational dynamic. If I haven't really worked with that, and figured that out, I'm going to, you know, it's going to be very hard to

 

11:49

feel like I've healed from that, or not that people heal from the trauma, but grown in my own experience as a human, with outside the context of the most important relationships to me in my life.  I typically tell my clients, we can do plenty of quote unquote individual work. We bring in perspectives of like how this plays out in your relationships. But in the context  of you're coming in as individuals,

 

12:17

You're learning new coping mechanisms as individuals. You're doing the depth work, meaning we're going back and we're working on inner child healing.  We can do all of that and it's very beneficial. That's our homework, but your final exam. Is  always going to be re entering in to the dynamic. That you're most afraid of, so whether that's re entering back into some sort of family of origin dynamic.

 

12:46

or whether that means re-entering into your next romantic relationship after  you know, after you survived a really toxic dynamic before your final exam is going to be putting everything you know  into a real life experience.  And it's gonna be harder.  It's gonna feel like to your clients,  oh, where's all the work that I just did? I was feeling so much better, but  did I actually do the work? Yes.

 

13:14

You did so much work, it's supposed to feel harder when you go back into a real life experience. The tools are still there, but we have to now  really put them in place. And that means revisiting your vulnerabilities and your fears, but we're going to be doing those things in a new way.

 

13:36

Yeah, and to me, I think it offers more deeper healing for people, more authentic healing for people to do it in that way, even though it's harder. So just to go back to the trauma bonds, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to summarize it a little bit. You said so many good things. Oh, thank But the trauma bond is like one person's historic

 

14:04

family of origin relationship stuff, coming into the relationship with  the other partners, historic family of origin stuff, traumatic stuff, childhood experiences, and they're sort of creating new dynamics between each other  based on that trauma, based on the attachment styles, based on all of  those types of things, where they  create some sort of pattern between each other that's...

 

14:33

Why do they call it a trauma bond? there some sense of, there's like a sense of connection while at the same time, sense of like driving me crazy or something like that? Sure.  Absolutely. So  the original name of my book was  Where the Wounded and Broken Collide.  So that was the original name of the book until this  other one came to me in a dream.  So what I imagine are these  two different attachment styles.

 

15:03

trauma wounds, trauma reenactments, origin stories colliding in friction and tension and misunderstanding and replication of our deepest fears. So if we go back to some of Sue Johnson's work, which really was that some of my earlier trainings was emotion focused therapy.  She really gave us a lot of language to talk about how our different attachment styles, even into adulthood,

 

15:33

can be triggering of each other. But it  leaves us,  the trauma bond leaves us with wanting to  wanting our old patterns to create  new outcomes. So we keep doing the crazy quote unquote crazy thing. We keep doing it over and over again because it's the only tool that we have to get the outcome that we want. So with Sue Johnson's with with emotion focused work,  we know that

 

16:02

The individual that's the pursuer, which in trauma-informed language might be a little bit more of, have to control everything. I'm afraid of being left. I'm afraid of being abandoned. Let me handle everything. I'll fix it. It's the go-getter of the problem. Will trigger the flooded, overwhelmed, burdened, not enough  trauma wound  of what she would call the withdraw.

 

16:28

So the individual that gets flooded and shuts down and stonewalls and collapses, the more that person collapses and withdrawals, the more that triggers the pursuer. So now with more trauma informed language, we're actually seeing. It's not just our attachment styles that are at play here. It's our trauma that's getting reactivated and we're creating this chasing dynamic that is reenacting these old trauma wounds.  And it has this.

 

16:58

intoxicating  yet painful sensation to our psyche and our nervous system.  It's actually a catalyst in our brain to similar addictive mechanisms like  drugs and alcohol. We'll see similar regions of the brain light up with dynamics like this.  Yeah, it's interesting when you say intoxicating, mean, I'm just imagining  my own personal experiences where there's like

 

17:27

this discomfort and pain, but there's also this sort of  desire to keep arguing or something like that. There's this impulsive feeling of, I  need to solve this or something. I don't know what it is exactly, I know exactly what you mean when you say that. Right.  There's something that charges us, because we're seeing the person that we want the most to understand us, to not leave us, to not abandon us.  We see them going away.

 

17:56

and it charges us in this pursuit to get them back, that maybe if we go a little bit harder or explain a little bit more, push a little bit more, finally they'll get it. Unfortunately,  that energy typically overwhelms them and they're going to energy conservation mode and they're shutting down and they're going into their own trauma response of dissociating or going to a freeze response.  So in our quest to be understood,

 

18:24

we're actually causing us to be more misunderstood. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers.

 

18:51

They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P

 

19:20

or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Well, let's define the term toxic relationships.  Honestly, I'm going to just be straightforward with you. It's a buzzword. Yeah. And I wanted to take the buzzword that had a lot of stigma to it  and I wanted to reclaim it and I wanted to make it less stigmatizing and more approachable.  And I wanted to take it and be a voice that says  you can use it as an excuse.

 

19:51

Or you can do something about it. Yeah. I appreciate that because I think people kind of drop it a lot  and have their own definitions for it or use it as an excuse to sort of not work on their relationship  or to accuse their partner of something. It's sort of like maybe the question is like,  do I know if my relationship is salvageable versus like, how do I know if it's really

 

20:19

just an abusive relationship that's really damaging and not gonna get anywhere versus something that feels really toxic sometimes, but maybe there's hope for it.  And even  as I say this answer that I have, it doesn't mean that it will work out, but there's a difference between relationships that are based  on

 

20:46

past trauma and what our intentions are  in the behaviors that we are choosing to do versus  the red flags of abusive, dangerous relationships  that have to do with an individual that is basically delighting in your suffering.  If you are with an individual that delights  in their power over you, that wants to cause you pain,

 

21:13

whose intention has a type of dangerous  overtones to it.  No, like  we're doing crisis work at that point. We're helping that victim get to safety, get resources, get connected to where they need to be and we're getting them out. Then we have individuals who are operating out of deep fear, deep nervous system reactivity, the fight flight, freeze, fawn response.

 

21:43

They have been modeled very poor attachment, intimate attachment  relationships in their life. And they're trying to connect with other people in the only way that they know how, and that's painfully and fearfully. And a relationship has hope if that individual is willing to take accountability  of the behaviors that they're doing, take responsibility over creating change,

 

22:12

and possess the ability to empathize with what that must be like for the person on the receiving end  of  their trauma reactions.  So they need to take accountability. They need to be responsible for the change and they need to be able to empathize. If they possess those three things, there is hope. Not a guarantee, but hope. Yeah, that's great. Right. And if

 

22:41

We have a couple who's coming in for therapy, if people  are listening who work with couples. I think that's a really good way to sort of  give hope to the situation,  that the two of you both have really good intentions. You both really care about each other and you keep getting stuck in this pattern. But assuming that that exists, assuming they both do want to work on it. But I think that's a really good way to start off and make sure and establish

 

23:10

that that exists for people, you know, before we have them do that kind of trauma work in the presence of each other. Yeah, and will they be able to turn towards each other and speak on behalf of those three qualities?  It's really hard,  even if we as clients, even if we as clients understand that the  reasons we react and the place that reacts

 

23:39

are related to something that wasn't originally our fault.  Even if we know that some of the impulses that we have are based on attachment patterns and old trauma wounds,  saying that we are wrong or that we make bad decisions sometimes, that ownership piece  can be really, really hard because we're so afraid of being inherently bad.

 

24:10

So owning in itself can be really, really hard, but it's pivotal.  In any sort of couples work, two parties need to take their own individual roles in any sort of progress  to be made. I don't know what you would say, but  getting them to those three things might take several sessions before we get there. Oh, absolutely. part of what you're referring to, there might be

 

24:37

a lot of people who sort of go into a shame spiral, anytime their partner's trying to express their feelings, they're feeling blamed and judged and criticized, the other partner. And, you know, think that's part, and I don't, again, I don't know what your perspective is, but that's part of what I think is so important about the trauma work is finding out like what exists in that shame core that exists for each person and what  formed that and what experiences did you have that

 

25:06

make you protective of yourself when these things are happening. that could take a lot of time to sort of get to that point for people. Absolutely. So it's not just, are you able to do this, this, and this?  I mean, great if somebody's coming in and two people have already done their individual work and be able to take ownership and  they're ready to hit the ground running with some  of the more  interpersonal couples related.

 

25:36

healing, but most of the time, even those three things,  somebody might have the capability, like they're capable of finding it eventually, but even the act  of taking responsibility and taking accountability.

 

25:55

can shed light on where a trauma exists. And you're referring to shame. In my book, I call it the black hole of shame.  pulling from some parts work,  internal family systems can be really helpful  with that shame spiral because we're basically working with an exile. That exile has been taught that it's bad, inherently bad, inherently wrong,  that there's something  primarily

 

26:23

dirty or flawed about one's identity and defensive qualities or hyper controlling qualities and critical qualities, those are just mechanisms to protect that trauma wound, that exile wound. So  even in those three qualities that we're looking for is trauma work to do.  So as we as therapists can maybe pull on some of our theories like internal family systems,

 

26:53

can work on how that defensiveness is a protector for this exile wound. Taking ownership of a behavior that you do does not mean that you are inherently bad and wrong. Those two things can be pulled apart and we can teach our clients how to disentangle that. Yeah, yeah, that's great. for you, you mentioned

 

27:21

having some background in EFT  and having some background in  internal family systems. Is that the framework for  the way you work and some of the stuff you're talking about right now? Or are there other things that have influenced you? I would say emotion-focused therapy is the worldview that I  operate in. I look for the dances,  the patterns, as opposed to very  singular events.

 

27:50

or  content, look for patterns. look for the space between. So that really influences how I perceive the work that I do. Everything is relationship oriented in  my approach. But I feel approaches like internal family systems, they're really good strategies.  So they help me kind of pull in and focus in a little bit more with practical skills.

 

28:19

And so those two things are very prominent in the work that I do.  I love somatic work as well. So I bring in a lot of bilateral stimulation. I talk a lot about somatic experiencing. If certain parts of the body could speak, what would they say?  Where are you feeling certain reactions in your body? And if you were to elaborate on that, what would you do?  So I think between those three things there,  that would encapsulate  my

 

28:49

approaches.  Yeah, great, great. And is there anything else that you wanted to talk about  from your book that we haven't brought up so far? Well, my book is laid out into three parts.  Part one is  mostly about how to do  some of that depth work, how to revisit your origin story. So part one is going to help clinicians or

 

29:18

You know the general reader. I have it written so that both could have a really good understanding of how to do your own personal work or how to do the work clinically. So part one is going to be about how to go deeper with your origin story, how to explore attachment wounds  and the roles that you had to play as a child in your family, how you learned  to be quote unquote good and accepted and safe in your family and or of origin based on those roles that you learned how to play.

 

29:47

Part two is going to be how do those origin wounds play out in your current relationships?  What does it look now embodying those roles as an adult? Because it could look a little bit different, but they're rooted in the same thing. And so that's when we really get to explore the dynamics of the trauma bond or the toxic hook.  Some of these different  ways in which two individual stories collide. And then finally.

 

30:16

Section three is where a lot of therapists,  they don't lean into this part of healing and that's post-traumatic growth.  A lot of therapists tend to end their work  once they reach a type of status quo, a type of just regulation, stability, and that's great, but there's more that can be done. So post-traumatic growth  is the phenomenon that happens.

 

30:45

when individuals who went through something dark resurface,  but transcend where they would have been if the trauma didn't happen in the first place.  And human beings have the capability of doing that. And I think it's important to bring that level of healing so that they're not just reaching back to status quo and self-regulation. They're able to make meaning of what they endured.

 

31:14

And that means reaching an  even deeper level of intimacy with your partner. Maybe it's about spirituality.  Maybe it's about seeing life full of  new possibilities and untapped strengths that you have.  So let's explore that too. So I pretty much take the reader  on that journey from your origin story to the present moment and into post-traumatic growth through stories.

 

31:41

case examples with clients, activities,  strategies, exercises, and some psychoeducation so that it's a dynamic read for either the general population or the clinician. Yeah, that's great. And I feel like a lot of therapists kind of believe that,  you know, we will do this trauma work and we'll just love up that inner child part of the person. And then they'll just automatically know how to function in the world after that. And I think,

 

32:11

The post-traumatic growth stuff you're talking about sounds really good to me because it's like an opportunity to sort of like, this is my belief. think there's like, the psycho education is very important for people.  We have to teach them what a healthy relationship looks like and teach them what a healthy human being looks like. And they're not just naturally going to know how to do that. So I think that that's an important  aspect for people.

 

32:37

Sure, and even in doing inner child work and healing the wounded inner child, that doesn't mean a child knows how to do romantic relationships. You know, like, that's such a pivotal place to go back and bring healing to teach about your own inherent self worth and lovability. But then we need to teach the adult around how that manifests in terms of intimacy and sensuality and romantic connection and even sexuality.

 

33:07

and how that will be expressed in an adult context.  It's not enough just to do her child work. That's just about your own connection with yourself. And then from that place as adults, then we go in and we help the adult transcend  and be able to see the whole picture as well. that's more of like a, for better or worse, I'm gonna use this word. That's more of like a soul journey  at that point.  So we go from the child to the adult human being to

 

33:37

You know, that's soul work. If you want to use it that way, hire self work and  it can be the whole package. Yeah, no, that's great. So I have a  challenging question for you. Let's say that you have a couple who's coming into your office. It seems like their  communication is very contentious. You know, they're both very escalated and having a hard time. How do you start with how do you begin to decide?

 

34:05

Where am I going to start with this? What is the first steps that I need to take in order to get a hold on this situation or a read on this situation or something  to begin working with this couple? The first  experience with a couple like that, that it gets heightened immediately. It gets argumentative immediately. Everybody, there's so many voices that's happening in the moment. The first thing that I have to do is I have to carve out some space for me.

 

34:35

Because they're already taking up all the energy of the room, all the minutes of the hour arguing. So I have to figure out a way to regulate that 50 minutes, that hour, whatever you end up being. I have to figure out a way to carve out space  for me to be this third entity  of  that dynamic. Eventually, what I'm going to represent  is a third entity that

 

35:03

needs to exist between both of those individuals. That third entity is the relationship. So you have person one, person two, that's not making space for any third entity. There's no relationship. There's nothing that they're taking care of. It's just two individuals colliding.  So  my first step is  helping them slow down so that I can enter into it.  I'm going to represent the relationship for a certain amount of time.

 

35:33

before they're able to see it more symbolically. That's what I'm that analogy. And so, and how would you do that? Verbally, non-verbally, slowing down, bringing awareness to what is happening in the moment, and actually doing some psychoeducation of what I just said. I am going to be this for you 50 minutes once a week, or whatever the time is that they're allowing. This is who I am for you guys. Your job, I'm going to...

 

36:03

mirror back to you what you are doing to your relationship.  I'm going to map it out. I'm going to help you put language to it. I'm going to help you start to understand what you're shaping in the process of you all trying to battle each other and draw a line in the sand. So  verbally slowing things down, having each per like lots of prompts.

 

36:30

to get them to respect the other person's space and the other person's words and language.  And  then like I said, some of that psycho  education piece of what now feels different about the relationship  when I can  verbalize and mirror back to you and explain to you what is happening in the moment. Yeah. And I love that because I think a lot of people, I mean, including myself, I'm not trying to be blaming of anyone.

 

36:59

A lot of people just react  and just say whatever comes to mind right away. In that process, what you're doing is  the idea of creating space so that they begin to get used to, okay, there's this other human being. Okay, I have to pause for a second to allow space for them to talk a little bit.  In that process, you're teaching them too about how they can do that in  their own relationship between the two of them.

 

37:29

and begin to teach them more respectful ways of communicating with each other. And I think that makes a lot of sense. That's a really good framework. And what I've heard many times, it's like this three step process. It's step one, I'm an actual human being. I'm their therapist, carving out my space in the dynamic. And I'm teaching them in the moment to make space for me, quote unquote me, which is the relationship.

 

37:59

Level two is all of a sudden I start to exist in their head at home  and they hear my little chirper voice of like what Laura would say what would Laura do and they'll start to  hear  they'll get to know me which is actually they're getting to know their relationship because that's what I'm Symbolizing and I'm only mirroring back to them their unique relationship but they hear it in my voice and they see it in my facial expressions in their mind and they'll start to

 

38:28

pause and think about another way. And then step three is they start to adapt it into their own language and their own personality. So it stops sounding like therapist, Laura, and actually starts to sound like Jane and John. Like it starts to sound like them, they, and their own personality and their own language and their own humor and their own ways.  So that's when I know it's really seeping down from  conceptually getting it to somatically getting it.

 

38:59

Yeah, I love that. And it's a learning curve. I think  so many people have really good intentions.  And it's just like learning any new skill that it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of practice. And so you're sort of providing  assistance to them.  slowly, little by little, they're going to learn how to do it themselves. That's right.

 

39:26

as a couple or even as individuals, because this can work at the individual level too.  Yeah, that's great. Good. Well, I know we're getting close to the end of time here. Any other thoughts before we wrap it up? I think this was great. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. do you want to mention your website and where people can find your book? Loving You is Hurting Me.  You can get it off  of Amazon. You can order it off Barnes & Noble.

 

39:53

You can also follow me on Instagram at doc Copley D O C C O P L E Y. I have a website, lauracopley.com that you can also check out. That's where I will be doing some speaking engagements, any updates on just where I'm going to be and what my next projects are. I'm giving tick tock a shot also at doc Copley. We'll see how that goes, but yeah, that's where you can find me.

 

40:21

Great, yeah, and I  encourage people to go to your Instagram because you have a lot of followers.  you must have, yeah, there's probably a lot of good stuff on there. Yeah. I put out a lot of content on my Instagram. That's the first social media outlet that I tried. So I tend to go there first, but I know like TikTok is a thing now, supposedly. I'm an older millennial. I don't know, but yeah, we're giving it a shot.

 

40:47

Sounds good. Good. Well, yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you. And I'll put links to that stuff in the show notes for people.  absolutely. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much, Laura. I'm so grateful for you and thank you to all you listeners out there. Definitely go check out the CouplesTherapistCouch.com. There's a bunch of free resources there as well as you can look into the couples therapist inner circle if you're interested in that. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma.

 

41:16

They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.  handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye everybody!