237: Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT) with Dr. David Mars

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. David Mars about Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT). Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 237: Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT) with Dr. David Mars

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Join the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new 

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. David Mars about Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT). David is the Director of the Transformative Couples Therapy Institute and has presented workshops, courses, webinars, and online supervision worldwide for over 30 years. Hear how he created Transformative Couples Therapy, the issues he saw with traditional couples therapy, how we can improve couples therapy by learning from babies & children, how sessions work for Transformative Couples Therapy, and the role meditation can play in sessions. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• The two main emotions we want to evoke in therapy
• Compassion and empathy as the levers in a relationship
• The value of infusing somatics into couples therapy
• Why anger can be the best catalyst for relationship transformation
• Creating meaning through the way you ask the question 

To learn more about Dr. David Mars, visit:

TCTInstitute.org

Transformative Couples Therapy In-Person Training on May 30-31, 2025 in Charlottesville, VA

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

Show Notes

• 237: Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT) with Dr. David Mars
• [0:00] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:59] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch
• [1:20] Welcome, Dr. David Mars!
• [2:27] What got Dr. David interested in couples therapy to begin with?
• [3:25] What prompted him to start something new?
• [5:24] How to get out of the fixing mindset as a therapist?
• [8:40] Using parts work as a way for partners to understand each other
• [12:39] How the process of Transformative Couples Therapy (TCT) creates safety
• [15:36] What is blocking with meaning?
• [17:52] Looking at pre-occupied attachment
• [21:02] You can have a loving partner, friend, and advocate all in one
• [23:29] Visit helloalma.com/atpp to spend less time on admin work and more time offering great care to your clients
• [24:22] Is Dr. David always looking for ways to do deep trauma work?
• [28:42] How childhood experiences show up as soothing behaviors later
• [31:11] The value of anger for relationship improvement
• [36:06] Creating meaning through the way you ask the question
• [38:11] The different approach between TCT and Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP)
• [40:51] Learn more about TCT
• [42:16] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: This transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

passion is much more spacious. It's just like saying, no, going through a lot. And I'm not where you are right now. But I sure feel with you, where you're at. I don't need to join with you there. And wallow in that place that you're in. It's enough that you're there. I want to be here kind of to bring  resources in.

 

00:22

to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:38

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:07

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everybody, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkels and today I'm speaking with Dr. David Mars, the Director of the Transformative Couples Therapy Institute. Hey David, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

 

01:32

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to talk more about transformative couples therapy. But before we get into that, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself? Sure. I spend most of my time either  training couples therapists or doing couples therapy. And of preparing for courses as well.  my  wife is also involved with training therapists. Right now she's training a group of therapists in Israel.

 

02:01

So have kind of a home that's dedicated to  in our case, training people in individual therapy. I train people in couples therapy and do couples therapy. So it's kind of an interesting life of  both of us  having related careers. Right. Yeah. And what got you interested in doing couples therapy to begin with? You know, when I was a kid, I lived in a fairly chaotic house and I really believed that

 

02:29

Kids deserve a better situation in terms of parental conflict, feeling safe, being able to feel like they could speak their minds and be heard. And it felt very important to me to be involved, both through college, master's program, doctoral program, to want to hone my skills in area of couples therapy, primarily because it's the motivation on children being able to grow up being securely attached. I think that's super important for the world.

 

02:58

kind of fuels me  on a meaning level. Yeah, that's great. And I think what I have found is that a lot of people are motivated to do things for their children that they may not otherwise be motivated to do for themselves. Absolutely true.  That rings true to me.  So as you were going through your training and beginning to work as a therapist, at what point did you decide that it would be helpful to start something new?  I think the

 

03:28

experience of being in couples therapy was very instructive.  I went to couples therapists, you  know, time or two and kind of tried out couples therapy and I was really shocked at how disturbing it was.  And you know, just really  not optimal. And that the  approaches that I got exposed to for couples therapy felt like they were more disturbing than bringing peace and harmony.

 

03:57

And I really felt that the peace and harmony piece needs to be  emphasized and to bring  more of a look at how couples can build on their strengths rather than come in with complaints. I think when a couple starts to complain and shame each other and with the therapist is provoking that, asking what's wrong with your relationship, what brings you in, what's your conflicts. If we start out on that level of talking about shaming and blaming the relationship or each other.

 

04:26

We've already gotten off on a really negative foot.  That's very typical in couples therapies that the negative cycle is a hyper focus. And I'm much, much more  enjoying and seeing good benefit from couples. There was learning how to  see the love in the couple and draw that out from the first session on and to be an emissary of peace really. So we're not really evoking trouble. We're really evoking peace and harmony.

 

04:55

in a sense of the couple seeing  their love for each other is real and how to make it more real in daily life. Yeah, that's great. And I definitely think a lot of couples are fearful that if they go to couples therapy, they're going to stir things up in a way that they won't know what to do with it. And I think if there are, I believe there are a lot of inexperienced couples therapists out there where that actually happens, that, you know, things get stirred up and then they don't know what to do with it.

 

05:24

They don't know how to help the couple with that. But I'm wondering how, you know,  as I'm thinking about working with couples, I'm wondering how do you start off? Cause I think a lot of times couples have that assumption. Like we're going to go tell the therapist all our problems  and that's the starting point for fixing them or something like that. So how, do you get away from that sort of mindset? Yeah. Well, the way I start therapy and you know, we,  all the transformative couples therapy, practicing therapists,

 

05:54

operate from the point of view of what do you want to have in your relationship? How do you want to be with each other? We start from that mindful position of choice. And when a couple member is, instead of complaining about their couple partner, speaking what they want and telling them directly, eye to eye, here's what I want to have with you, here's I want to live with you, almost always there's agreement about that. There's a great degree of wanting for peace and harmony from both couples.

 

06:23

perspectives. And they're beginning with a therapist who's really looking at wanting them to be guided, and finding what they really love about each other, to feel that more deeply and be able to express that more deeply. We're already starting at a win-win situation that way. Yeah, that's great. So you, you actually have them look at each other eye to eye at the beginning and when they're talking about what they want. Right. Exactly.

 

06:51

And what I love about it is that there's a way that the couple members sort of best gets evoked. a lot of their longings, how they wanted to be in their marriage  come out as complaints. Cause you know, there's two ways to try to get what you want. One is to say, you're pissed you're not getting it. The way is saying, here's what I really want in a vulnerable way. That's really asking for collaboration. As I'm describing this to you, I get, I get kind of energetic feeling about my head and body about

 

07:20

The thrill of that. Cause when couple members are really engaged in  their longings being expressed, they are already going beyond what their parents did typically. Just by talking about it, just by trying to talk about it. About what they want. Yeah. As opposed to what's wrong with the other person. Yeah. And there's something about the experience. For example, now Shane, there's a,  three years into a research project on transformative couples therapy, the team of 11 therapists.

 

07:49

who are very experienced in the work and many of them are certified in the work. And to see their work is so thrilling because we get to see a 16 session model, very short-term therapy for a couple work. And to watch how the couples transform week by week and the teams see each other's videos and we're there to support each other. And we're gonna meet actually in two days again, we meet every two weeks. And the quality of care and love and kindness

 

08:19

so inspiring. And of course, when a couple of members get stuck in some sort of a traumatic history that they're really get mired in sometimes, we work with that deeply. We work with them in a place of peace and harmony between the couple members to get more compassion for what brings that couple member to get so incensed and reaction filled. And we help them to find a way to understand their partners by doing some parts work, going back in time.

 

08:48

I see a couple of members yelling at their partner and getting really elevated. I say, wait, wait, wait. If you don't yell right now, you just kind of look at your partner and your partner moves his head over to the side a little bit or her head aside a little bit. What do you see? Whose face is it beyond your partner's face? Whose is anger really belong to? And who do you really want to direct it to? And almost always it's okay. This is the past thing. It's something that's been haunting me and I do get really triggered about it.

 

09:18

We work with it deeply right there with a couple of members as a witness. And typically it doesn't happen in a of therapists. You actually get this instant capacity for both couple of members to learn about each other. And the one who's doing the deep work gets to be the witness for their own process. And they're probably getting to witness them as well. And to be standing by their side, rather than being the target they're aiming at. And I feel like, yeah, okay. Well, the next time this comes up,

 

09:47

I'll know what you're reacting to and I'll be able to help you because I love you and I want to be a peacemaker with you and let's find a way to get through it together in a kind way. I understand you've got some trauma, so do I. Let's just be, let's be allies about it. Yeah. And I think, you know, that makes a lot of sense when we're feeling stressed and overwhelmed. We often look to things external to us to sort of blame or figure out like, how do I fix this problem? If I could just fix my partner, then I'd feel better.

 

10:16

or something like that.  It sounds like  part of the process and what you're talking about is really helping the individual person to sort of turn the lens back toward themselves and say,  what's coming up for me? What is this connected to about my history?  How can I work with this?  it can, like pretty quickly lead to some really deep work for each person as an individual.

 

10:44

And like you said, with the other person as a witness for that.  That's very true. I appreciate what you're saying. You know, I also feel  Shane that in the process of couples therapy, I gained a lot. really get to see the best sides of people that very few people get to see. Because when people are mired in some triggered state, there's stuff that worse comes out. And what I love about the couples therapy is as it progresses in transformative couples therapy.

 

11:11

We get to see our couple members get more more secure attached  to each other and to us as therapists. And some of what they've always missed in life, of being able to be heard, be seen,  be acknowledged, be met, they happen and then people start to blossom. That blossoming process is thrilling to  see. It doesn't matter if a couple members are not yet married, maybe they're in premarital therapy, maybe they haven't been together 30 years.

 

11:40

Either way, there's a lot of growth that can happen. And I like to think about Martin Buber's work of the I-Vow relationship as being a very wise way to go. And Buber had this point of view and it said that if you see your partner as an unknown universe, as you long to know better, you address your partner as a sacred other, then you have this quality of the I-Vow rather than I-It. And I-It, relationship is instrumental. You do what you should do.

 

12:09

by my thoughts. You act the way I think you should act, by my thoughts. And you and I can get along as a, you do it this way, should relationship, should be this way, should be that way. But the I-Thou relationship is much more about spontaneity, connection, authenticity, productive truth telling, being able to speak to the partner of the real experience we're having, being able to feel like we have an ally who wants to know us.

 

12:39

Yeah, that's great. As you're saying all that, you know, this idea is coming to my mind that a lot of couples therapists talk about, which is like safety,  right? Creating safety because if I'm  feeling insecure or fearful, you know, then that really  influences the way the interaction is happening with my partner. And what you're talking about would in my mind create a lot of safety for  that blossoming to happen for each of the partners.

 

13:09

relationship. That's very true. I'm thinking about the work of Beatrice Beebe and how she shows that at the point of four months of a baby's life,  they can already diagnose the attachment style of this four month old. And how do they know that? How they know the attachment style is by looking at the mother-infant interactions through seeing, maybe seeing the mother, the mother seeing the baby, hearing

 

13:38

mother hearing and seeing the baby and vice versa, touching, that sensation of touching,  movements of the mother, movements of the baby, and that sense of energetic exchange as well. And when they code this in moment to moment  videography, frame by frame analysis, they can see mother's reaching toward baby,  baby's reaching back toward mother, baby's smile brings mom's smile, mom's bright eyes bring on mom's bright eyes. They start to connect in what I would call the seven channels of experience.

 

14:08

sensation, emotion, energy, movement, auditory visual and imaginal, baby and mother are in harmony. And that harmony creates secure attachment. And that contingency where the mom is responding to the baby in real time and immediacy, when partners do that as well, it contacts the source of the internal working model, which is an infancy for all of us.  At four months of age, we already know the attachment style of that baby.

 

14:38

At two years of age, the Ainsworth train situation  test shows it validates what was found at four months.  Something about the magic of that that informs us how we are is very malleable. The baby can change in four months. What can we do in four months for really attuning and connecting and being in a relational rich  environment where our senses are all being activated?

 

15:07

then we can start to get past what will be called defensive exclusion. Defensive exclusion is blocking seeing with meaning, hearing with meaning, feeling with meaning, knowing with meaning. And  why do babies do that? Because they're in insecure environment where if they do cry, because they're scared, they cry out with a need to likely either be ignored or be punished for it, because they're found to be irritating. So what we really want to do is create with a couple.

 

15:36

A contrast to that, where the speaking and the hearing are done with harmony, with a kindness, and all the missteps of that person's early development get to be filled in with their partner, with the therapist assisting that process.  And what do mean when you say blocking with meaning? Wilby had two  main discoveries that he made. One is that people block awareness.

 

16:03

As babies, as infants, as toddlers, little boys, little girls block seeing, hearing, feeling, sensing, but they also block knowing. They block knowing with meaning and that knowing is if I know mom and dad are really in a lot of trouble and I say, dad, why are you being so mean to mom? That little boy or girl might get slapped, might get ignored, might get shunned, might get a death stare. Don't how dare you say that. Right.

 

16:33

That's you cannot say that. And so that shame response seals off that baby's capacity to know that toddlers capacity to speak that little boy or little girl's capacity to act with meaning. So that creates a falseness of self that's covered then with layers of defense. That's really part of what comes in the couples therapy is defenses against sensation, emotion, energy, movement, etc. Awareness, semantically, but also it.

 

17:03

can cover up the knowing. Wow, that's great. It's really sad.  because  are you saying that, you know, if I'm if I'm a little child in that situation, and  I'm going to get a shaming response from my parents, if I name the truth of what's happening,  that I will make up meaning to protect both  myself and the parents in the situation,  I'll make up a meaning like

 

17:29

If I just stay quiet and don't say anything, then it keeps the peace in the household or something like that. And so that meaning blocks me from knowing the truth of what's really going on in the situation or something like that. And that sounds very true to me. I want to mention, as you're saying this, Shane,  part of this is that when we look at preoccupied attachment, anxious ambivalent attachment, that that's really founded on the infant, the toddler, little boy, little girl learning.

 

17:58

I, I take care of you, you will likely take care of me. Then I'm not taking care of myself. I'm not aware of what I want or need. I don't know what I feel maybe. But if I'm connected to a super tolerant point of view of just saying, I'll give up my needs to be cared for. Then we see then later in life, a very resentful couple member who had trained early in life. I'm not, can't be an advocate for my needs, but I can only go through you.

 

18:27

The resentment just grows and grows because that person can't be an advocate for themselves because their internal working model, the rules  under which they operate don't allow it. As part of what the therapy needs to help them with is they're able to speak productive truth telling, tell the partner the truth and quake in their boots to see what's going to happen. My gosh, the partner really wants to hear me. What a surprise. There's two main emotions  in transformative couples therapy that we really want to foster.

 

18:57

Surprise,  I'm surprised this is working so well, to tell you the truth, for example. Surprise, you love me in a way I didn't know you loved me.  How joyful. And the joy comes naturally out of surprise, opening up that sense of  the inner  security building. I'm loved and I'm known and  I'm open to more surprises by varying from my habit trail. The persistent trail I've always followed my whole life. I don't have to do that necessarily. I can innovate.

 

19:27

and be safe. That's great. So surprise and what's the other one and enjoy. Enjoy. Yeah, that's great. Well, and you were talking about, you know, as a child, oftentimes we don't know what we need or we want. And I think the way that I see it is that it requires a parent to sort of tune into the child. mean, part of what you're talking about is just the nature of a child.

 

19:53

A child doesn't understand boundaries in the same way adults do. They don't understand what they need or want. It  requires a parent to help them and teach them about the world. And if they don't have a parent who's capable of doing that  in a healthy way,  think, like you said,  it can create a lot of issues in adult relationships where I'm still seeking  some sort of...

 

20:18

parenting energy from my partner, or I'm still seeking some sort of  loving connection that I should have got from my  parent.  And  I think it creates a lot of  codependence or toxic dynamics or cycles between couples or something like that.  It's a fine edge though. really, I'm aware that some people say that you can't have a best friend and a lover and someone who shares the mortgage and be married to them and be happy.

 

20:48

It's impossible. Some people believe that. But from my point of view,  40 years in to my marriage, I really have that.  And I  think it's possible to have, and I think it's possible to work toward that. And my wife says to me sometimes  fairly frequently, thank you for anticipating what I needed. Thanks for going shopping. I was too tired to go and you knew that you weren't shopping. Or thanks for...

 

21:16

sawing this out and getting it ready to go and preparing it so I could cook tonight. That really helps. And is that not doing it because I should, but doing it from a place of love. Right. That makes a big difference about love. That's not just being romantic, but love is that affectionate bond that says, I want to make your life easier. Yeah.  Out of caring.

 

21:40

Yeah, no, that's great because there's a common dynamic. It's almost like a parent child dynamic that plays out in relationships. Oftentimes where I'm going to do the right thing in my relationship so I don't get in trouble or something like that, which is a very different energy than you're talking about, right? I might be doing the same things, but if my mindset is more like, well, I want to be supportive and I care about my partner and I want them to have a good day today. Like that's a much more loving, mature adult sort of mindset about it.

 

22:09

Well, I think natural reciprocity is so delightful. Just the experience of gliding through life. And life is not all that easy. There's many tumbles and twists and turns. And there's something about being with a partner who is intuitive in the sense of using all their senses to know what the other partner is experiencing and not just empathizing, but being compassionate. Because empathy can be exhausting. If your partner is going through a very tough part of life, you're always

 

22:40

resonating with their deepest sorrow, it can make life difficult for both people. You can get exhausted. If partners know they can have compassion and they can have empathy, compassion is much more spacious. It's just like saying, no, going through a lot and I'm not where you are right now, but I sure feel with you where you're at. I don't need to join with you there and wallow in that place that you're in. It's enough that you're there. I want to be here kind of to bring resources in right now, because I know you're in a real struggle place.

 

23:10

your health or whatever's going on psychologically, family loss, compassion is such a wonderful second gear to have in relationship life. Yeah, that's great. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days.

 

23:39

and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join ALMA, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. ALMA helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients.

 

24:07

visit helloalma.com backslash ATP or click the link in the show notes to learn more. I want to take a step back a little bit  and deepen my understanding of transformative couples therapy. Maybe thinking about,  you started talking about in the first session, you might have the couple start talking about what they really want  and

 

24:34

What might the work look like sort of going from there? mean, are you always doing, are you always looking for opportunities to do that deeper trauma work to sort of help them make connections with what's showing up in the present?  Or are there other  things that you're thinking about, especially in those first couple sessions?  I'm not always looking for ways to deep trauma work. They appear and they're very obvious when they come up.  Parts of self get evoked.

 

25:02

that are often quite unpleasant and are needy or are reactive and need to be met with kindness and with guidance from the therapist. So for example, if a couple member is starting to get agitated and be aggressive toward the partner that moves toward cruelty or toward punitive behavior, which they learned in early childhood, I direct the partner member toward me and say, please talk to me for a moment. And I work toward regulating them in the

 

25:32

be able to form what they want to say. And there's nothing like anger expressed in a meaningful way to help change happen. Anger doesn't have to be punitive or painful. So the partner starts with some fury, then I help them to regulate, then I say, I really want you to listen to me when I speak and then not space out. I really need you to listen to me because it's so important to me. And to say that to the partner in a calm way. The beauty of that is that often people who space out

 

26:02

when their partner's upset are going to Dorsal-Vegel response from Porges  and Deb Dana. And Steve Porges, back in the  80s, was teaching about that current version of Poly-Vegel theory, who's known then.  And I had the opportunity to learn from him then and learn that when couple members space out and get foggy-eyed, get drifty, get kind of unconscious, they get itchy eyes and they're just sort of not present anymore, I'm not doing it.

 

26:31

to be a nuisance. They're doing it because they're in dorsal vagal response. What brings it on is fear without solution. So people who've been traumatized by yelling, angry looks, accusatory language, they'll go into a kind of a dissociative state, dorsal vagal, the partner thinks you're doing this  on purpose.  You're spacing out on purpose.  But it often isn't true. Once a couple of members know that and they find out, if I can speak what I want and need in a calm way,

 

27:01

And my partners likely to listen to me. If I yell at them, they're likely to space out  and go into a shock state. Yeah. They can't handle that kind of delivery. It's all about how do I finesse getting what I want and need in a way that also allows you  to get what you want and need in a trusting environment that grows. And our kids see us doing this.  Kids get to see whether they're in their twenties or thirties or if they're one, two, and three, four years old,  kids always get benefit from their parents transforming.

 

27:31

mean, what age the kids are.  Oh, yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, it really helps move away from those right and wrong type of conversations.  Nowhere. If if I'm getting angry and my partner's going into dorsal vagal and I'm like, you don't even care. You're not listening to me or you know that  instead  of arguing over whether they care or not or whether they're really listening or not, you know, the right and wrong type of direction.

 

28:01

you what you're talking about is really what works for you  and what works for me, which might be different things. And how do we become more understanding of that? And how do we, am I willing to change the way I'm approaching it if it's going to be helpful to you?  And it's probably going to help me get more of what I'm seeking as well. I agree with you.  Flexibility is one of the big things about, for example, the attachment style of being avoidant attached, anxious and avoidant.

 

28:29

There's a certain rigidity to that, a certain stiffness and flexibility, difficulty registering emotions of them with aggravation. Like, don't vibe me, just don't vibe me. And that tendency of being reactive to energy in a way that's quite unconscious can keep the other partner feeling trapped and they're not able to get heard. And if I'm inflexible as a partner, my partner doesn't really get a chance to breathe easy and say what they're wanting and needing and to anticipate

 

28:58

that I'm gonna flow with them. And one of the beauties about the avoidant attachment receptivity is that when a person feels accepted, if they grew up with rejection or a feeling of being criticized or a feeling of being alone in life, even as a two-year-old, I know you know about the strange situation, test with two-year-old, isn't that strange situation situation that when the mother leaves and the baby's, you know,

 

29:27

stressed out,  they can know they're stressed out because their saliva has a lot of adrenaline in it, but they don't show they're upset. They're just preoccupying themselves with what's on the floor with toys. Mom comes back,  doesn't really look at mom hardly,  gets really obsessed with what they're playing with, ignores the parent. That's the beginning of a life of ignoring when they're upset. Child's very upset, but they're not showing it, they're not telling it.

 

29:57

It's all submerged in anxiety and the parent gets a cold shoulder.  And I think there's something about that. at two years old, this  happened. Yeah, absolutely. Or even, or even a four month old. So to shut the mother out and just feel like their mom's not a resource  and certain away from mother is mother's not experienced as a safe base.  And often moms of anxious ambivalent children, for example,

 

30:27

find the angiosambivalent children are really hard to soothe  because they're just, they cling but they don't really receive care. People who are on the more angiosand avoidant side will just avoid contact at all costs. And if you have a marriage like that, that's a really uncomfortable place to be. One can't be soothed well because they doubt the consistency of their partner. And the other one can't be soothed because they're avoiding contact in the first place.

 

30:53

Yes, yes.  Is that like a pursuer-distancer kind of  dynamic? Yeah.  Pursuer-distancer. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Did you say that anger can be really helpful to express, but it depends how it's being expressed? Sort of like how can someone express anger in a respectful way or something like that? Exactly. And the voice doesn't even need to listen. The voice doesn't need be loud. Just to say, I really want you  to

 

31:23

Let me feel like I matter to you, as opposed to going to the insult and then the attack that can come from being insulted. Say, the way I know I matter to you is when I look at you and you look in my eyes and I can really see you see me. You acknowledge me. In my early life, I didn't get acknowledged. When you acknowledge me, I'm very grateful. When you act toward me like I matter and I'm substantially significant in your life, I can just calm down and feel like my early attachments are being met here.

 

31:53

Nothing wrong with that. Because in the course of a lifetime, when will our attachment needs get met, if they don't get met in childhood? Therapy helps. But in TCT or transformative couples therapy, the help is that we get as couples in the therapy, aim in a certain trajectory toward peace, toward harmony, toward this I thou relating. And then in between sessions, we live that way increasingly. The next session comes up, every session that I meet with couples, I

 

32:22

bring them a meditation, two or three minutes in length, it's spontaneous, that links to the notes from last session. And I queue them up and say, so what's been happening in the area of your feeling you matter since we met last? How do you notice that you're being received as being sincere when you tell your partner you love them? How do you know your relationship's improving since I saw you last? In truth, what are you grateful for? So the couple has a two or three minutes prep, they open their eyes, turn toward each other, and they say,

 

32:52

I'm so grateful to you because you did what you said you would do. I really feel acknowledged by you then last week, like never before. It's been amazing to me how much that touches me. And I know I didn't tell you yet, but I'm telling you now, this really feels like the right track for me. Me with you. I'm in this track with you. And for me, I get energetic thrill from that because when that happens in sessions, it happens quite often. We're starting with a positivity bias already. We have that sense of that.

 

33:21

micro-moments of connection that Fredrickson talks about. Where love is micro-moments of connection, it's about that sense of, I'm safer with you than with anyone else in the world. I like my therapist, but for you, I live with you, and you're a transformational person to me. That's a huge thing to have that benefit of transforming together, knowing we'll continue growing our whole lives together.

 

33:47

I've heard about this study where, you know, if the last 24 hours has been really bad or stressful  with your partner, that  people will report like the last 20 years of the marriage have been horrible or something like that, right?  I feel like  what you are creating is sort of the opposite energy of

 

34:11

you know, setting them up with that meditation and talking about how do they, how do they know their relationship has been improving? What are they grateful for that? That type of thing is sort of creating the opposite effect where they're thinking, you know, thinking warm thoughts about, know, all of the things that have happened that have been positive in our relationship or something like that. That's so true.  I love the, those moments and minutes, sometimes it goes on for 20 minutes and they're talking about how much their relationship is.

 

34:39

is growing and how much they're getting what was never in their marriage vows. They didn't have the language for it, but they're getting language to have a garden they tend together that is really about how they have the care and tending and planting of new ways of being that are part of their sacred place together. It's so wonderful. I like to work with couples, for example, who are near retirement,  where often the female partner is feeling a little distressed because now he's going to be here

 

35:08

all the time. He won't go to work.  mean, this is like really claustrophobia producing many female spouses. I like talking with them about if your relationship was just the way you want it for the next 20 years, what would it be like? And don't believe it has to be like it was just what you want and what you  you invest in is going to grow.  We'll do it together. And that is different than saying, how am I going to survive my partner?

 

35:38

It's, I'm not gonna thrive with my partner. Even though they're in their seventies, let's say, it doesn't matter. We can all change. Some people believe that a person cannot change except when they're young.  It's entirely untrue. We can change at any age, at any stage, as long as motivation and some guidance.

 

36:00

Yeah, it seems like in TCT there's a part of it that's very solution focused, right? Which, know, you're creating meaning in the way you're asking the questions and you're helping them create meaning, you know, in a different... It's very different if I ask you, how are you going to survive the next 20 years versus if I ask you, how are you going to have an amazing life with your partner for the next 20 years?

 

36:30

Um, you know, and you're creating sort of a different mindset for them about just in the way you asked the question. Yeah. So true. It's so true. Uh, when I'm also aware of an older couples that I work with is this sense of their having a belief that they know their partner entirely.  There's no secrets left, which is kind of boring. If you really believe, you know, everything about your partner, what's the point of having a conversation, but it's  productive truth telling this.

 

36:58

revealing what doesn't have to be revealed, but is really bringing relief to be revealed, that this knowing becomes part of the fabric of the work. An example is that there's some people who've lived with their partner for 30 years and never told them they're sexually abused. The partner always believed that their partner's sexual difficulties is all about them.  That's we get into working with the sexual abuse history. The partner never knew it for 30 years.

 

37:27

Suddenly they're beginning to be let in on something. It's the fact that that covers lives for three decades. Suddenly the mystery is being resolved. This happened to me. I feelings about this. I never got help with it. I'm getting help now with you present. Which is very moving for the partners both. One's being trusted and one's being trusted. They're both being held by the therapist in a way that the healing happens and that ability to know young parts in each other is so refreshing.

 

37:57

That person might be 70 years old, but their five-year-old part gets remembered. The part that was abused and that five-year-old part gets to grow and not be a prisoner alone in that place in memory, but to really be held in a place that's sacred and that's  When you say that,  you know, someone can hold that five-year-old part of themselves or something like that. Well, it's called poor trail work in the context of AEDP accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy.

 

38:28

that AADP and TCT share that in common. The difference is that in TCT, we do portrayal work with the partner present. And then the miracle of that is that the partners are so compassionate and so moving and so  present with the coaching of the therapist. And the partner feels received in a way that transforms their relation to their five-year-old part, let's The five-year-old part has been  in position of exile,  in a position of shame.

 

38:58

in isolation and self blame for being abused at five years old. When that adult, let's say again, they're 70 years old, has a relation with that five year old, they can say, wow, I'm really feeling in touch with my five year old right now. I'm really activated in a way that I need some support right now.  I'm in touch with that five year old's needs and I'm aware of that five year old communicating to me. I'm aware of the five year old part of me is very sensitive, very aware more than I am at 70.

 

39:28

I'm gaining some youth from the five-year-old part of me being woken up in my senses. I become more aware of how I can say what I want. My partner can understand I'm speaking the place of inner authority based on my five-year-old being part of me I'm in touch with. It's an amazing thing about the fountain of youth springing in us and consciousness in that way. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I think it's helpful for people. And I don't know if you see it the same way, but

 

39:57

the more I take care of that five-year-old part of myself, the more I can show up as my mature adult self in my relationship with my partner. And I'm not waiting for them to take care of that five-year-old part of myself. I'm taking some responsibility for that. And then don't need to act like a five-year-old to get my needs met. That's right. Right. There are other ways to go about it. But I love that because it's approaching that part of yourself with a lot of

 

40:27

compassion. It's not getting rid of it. It's  it's it's giving it a lot of connection and compassion and understanding for what it's feeling.  That's very true. Yeah.  Well, what a pleasure to talk with you, Shane. Yeah, this has been great. Any other final thoughts before we wrap it up today? I think the most  pressing feeling I have is just the enjoyment of the moment here. And the feeling about how TCT or transformative couples therapy is really growing and

 

40:55

wonderful to have this time with you to just have this knowing in the world about what the work is. Yeah, that's great. This has been a great conversation. How can people find out more about  getting training or about TCT in general? Do you have a website and or things like that? Yeah, it's simple. It's tct institute.org. TCT Institute.org or transformative couples therapy. Institute.org.  And

 

41:23

Yeah, there are courses that are ongoing and exciting things are happening with regard to that coming back to be in person again. For example, in Charlottesville, post COVID in Charlottesville is going to be on May 30th and 31st, a two day workshop. Those who want a live workshop and get to be with people in person again. That's a wonderful revival of that happening. Yeah, that's great. I mean, obviously it's so convenient to have online trainings, but there's something really special about just being in person with.

 

41:53

even for trainings. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So I'll put that in the show notes so people can find out more if they're interested, but thank you again so much for coming on. This has been a great conversation. Perfect. It's been a pleasure, Shane. Thank you. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP

 

42:22

or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye, everybody!