239: Neurodiversity & Relationships with Dr. Matt Zakreski

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane talks with Dr. Matt Zakreski about neurodiversity & relationships. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 239: Neurodiversity & Relationships with Dr. Matt Zakreski

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Dr. Matt Zakreski about neurodiversity & relationships. Dr. Matt is a seasoned clinical psychologist and professional speaker renowned for his expertise in serving neurodivergent individuals (people with different brains such as gifted, ADHD, Autism, and dyslexia), and is the author of Neurodiversity Playbook. Hear how to navigate neurodiversity with your clients, how generations differ when they’re diagnosed, why knowledge is the key to everything, communication considerations when a couple or partner is neurodivergent, and how to help your clients keep perspective. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• Compassion for brain diversity
• It's the thing you didn't know you didn't know. 
• How do different generations react to neurodivergence?
• Are there questions or ways for couples therapists to approach suspected neurodivergence?
• Why we need to remove the word "should" from your vocabulary

To learn more about Dr. Matt Zakreski, The Neurodiversity Collective, and Neurodiversity Playbook, visit:

DrMattZakreski.com

TheNeurodiversityCollective.com

Neurodiversity Playbook

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• 239: Neurodiversity & Relationships with Dr. Matt Zakreski
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:59] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch
• [1:34] Welcome, Dr. Matt Zakreski!
• [2:52] Are more people trying to figure out if they're neurodiverse?
• [5:13] How do you find an environment that you can operate best in?
• [7:30] How can people begin to discover if they're neurodivergent?
• [10:24] How do different generations interact with neurodivergence?
• [12:13] Who is Dr. Matt's book for?
• [14:22] The more you know about yourself, the more you can navigate neurodiversity
• [16:53] It's the thing you didn't know you didn't know. 
• [18:49] Are there questions or ways for couples therapists to approach suspected neurodivergence?
• [22:39] Communication is going to save the world, but it's also really hard
• [23:29] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [24:20] What else should people know about neurodivergence?
• [28:18] Neurodivergence is context, not an excuse
• [30:12] A lot of us are internalizing secret rules
• [33:27] How do neurodiverse couples communicate effectively?
• [28:22] Dr. Matt's final thoughts on neurodiverse couples
• [41:19] Connect with Dr. Matt Zabreski and check out The Neurodiversity Playbook
• [43:08] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: This transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

more you know about yourself, the more you can have healthier conversations.

 

00:09

Welcome to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Burkle.

 

00:25

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist's Couch. This is Shane Burkle, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:54

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit helloalma.com backslash A T P P or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the couple's therapist couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with Dr. Matt Zakreski, speaker, psychologist and author of the neurodiversity playbook. Hey Dr. Matt, welcome to the show.

 

01:19

Shane, thanks for having me. You know, I mean, you're the only person I've ever been on a podcast with who has as much product in their hair as I do.  respect, respect.  That's great. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about neurodiverse relationships with you today, but why don't you start by telling everyone a little bit more about yourself?  I'm a clinical psychologist.  I'm based in Northern New Jersey. You know, I  specialize in working with neurodivergent people,  uh, people with different brains, usually autism, ADHD, giftedness, dyslexia.

 

01:49

I started working with kids  and those kids were at schools and those schools had teachers and the teachers needed me to explain what I knew about the kids to them.  And talking to those teachers turned in talking to school boards turned and talking to parent groups. And before I knew it, I was a professional speaker. I say that with no false modesty. was like literally just  organically grew up around me and now I have two jobs. Then a lot of those neurodivergent kids I was seeing grew up.

 

02:16

And the challenges one faces in their twenties are a lot different than the ones they face in your teens. So I realized like, I've got a good relationship with these people. Let me see if I can level up and be the therapist they need for the rest of their lives. So, you know, at our practice, we see the whole lifespan, you know, it's really cool to see your clients grow up. Yeah, that's awesome. And I know, I know there's been a lot of education around neurodiversity in the last few years, but, um, do you still find that people are really

 

02:45

seeking to understand, you know, especially with their children or, uh, you know, trying to figure out like, what is neurodiversity and you know, do I fall into this category or do my kids or something like that? We've come so far and have so far left to go. Like both of those things, I think can be true, right? You know, Shane, I think we're about the same age, right? Like growing up as an, a gifted kid in Jersey who had ADHD, like you did not talk about the ADHD. It was like,

 

03:15

siloed. It was on the down low. And now I've got kids who reach out to my practice. They're like, Hi, I'm 11. I'm from Maryland. I was watching a tick tock and I'm pretty sure I've sensory processing disorder. Could I set up a meeting with you? I'm like, it's just so much more out there now. Like there are communities online, there are discord servers and you know, I mean, like therapy tick tock is absolutely a thing. Like, so it's great how far we've come, but like helping people to understand

 

03:44

more of the nuance around it, like the deep dive. I think that's where our jobs take place because, you know, seeing a term somewhere might like sort of awaken you to that concept. But then you've got to really understand what it means for you because there's still a lot of people out there who think neurodivergent is a synonym for autism.  You know, to me, it's like, well, think about neurodivergent like dessert, right? Cupcakes are a kind of dessert, but you wouldn't say all dessert is cupcakes, right?

 

04:14

You could have ice cream or cookies or brownies or a million other things.  like, autism is a big piece of the neurodivergent community, but it's not the only piece. That's great. Yeah, that was going to be one of my next questions. But  I think you're right. I think there's so much information out there, especially  with social media and everything else. One of the things people start to wonder is, am I neurodivergent?  what does that mean? How do I determine that?

 

04:43

And then like you said, if that's just an umbrella that has several other specific types of dessert underneath it, you know, how do I figure out which one of these other things more specifically that I am? And then the other question of, well, and what does that mean about me? And is there, should I get treatment or how do I,  you know, make sense of this for myself?  So Shane, what kind of computer are you running this on? This is a Mac book.  So we're both Mac users, right?

 

05:12

But when I travel and I do talks, have a work computer I bring with me. It's a PC because I don't know how much conferencing you do, but most of the hookups at these things are PC friendly. Okay. Right. So I have like a $300 crap Intel computer that I just bring that I just, it's literally just, all PowerPoints. It's all PowerPoints and Word. And I'm like jamming into the thing and do my PowerPoint. I go home. So like,

 

05:41

I don't think anybody would say that a PC  is a worse system than a Mac.  But they're definitely different, right? Macs can do some things really well that PCs can't do and vice versa, right? So when we're working with neurodivergent people, it's like, how do you find an environment that plays best with your operating system? Like, how do you find the people, places, and things that fit well for you? Because the world is built for and by

 

06:11

neurotypical people, right? Four out of five people are neurotypical. So like, that makes sense, right? There's a lot more of them than there are of us. They've built the world in their image, not to intentionally exclude anybody, you know, just because there's more of them, right? I, you know, I often use like a dinner party example, right? If you're having a bunch of people over to your house, you might grill some chicken, right? It's like, okay, a lot of people eat chicken, but then, you know, your buddy's girlfriend's roommate comes  and she's vegan.

 

06:41

You're not going to throw the chicken in the garbage because one person's vegan. But you also, as a good host, you've got to have food that the vegan person can eat.  Right.  And don't do that thing that you do at weddings where it's like, oh, you're vegetarian. Here's a baked potato  on salad. It's like, that's not actually dinner. That's just a fixed potato. Right. Right. My poor wife doesn't eat mammals. So oftentimes at weddings, she's like, it's either fish or steak.

 

07:06

I'm just going to do the veggie option, but I cannot tell you how often it's just a giant baked potato kid. It's like, what? Like, come on. So we just want environments that are inclusive by nature that can expand rather than like, well, everybody else does this. So you got to do it too. And what would be, you know, if, if I'm, let's say an adult who's wondering, who's learning more about this. And I'm thinking, am I  a neurodivergent? I don't know. Or is my partner,

 

07:35

Neurodivergent. What are some good places, like how can I begin to research and discover like if this is part of who I am? So the easiest way is to figure out like, have you ever been diagnosed with any of the things that are under our neurodivergent umbrella? Right. So dyslexia, giftedness, autism, ADHD, any learning differences, right? Those are the most common ones, right? So  if you were a gifted kid growing up or if you needed reading support,

 

08:03

If your mom made you take Adderall in high school and you weren't sure why, like those are things that  probably put you  under this umbrella. If you didn't go through the formal therapy process, and yes, you and I know like a lot of people don't, right? There's like, then I think it's more of this sense of like, have you always sort of felt like you don't really fit in? Like you can fit in, but your default setting is just a half step off everybody else, right?

 

08:33

that's a good sign that you might be neurodivergent.  If you think about your family of origin, your partner's family of origin,  are they the sort of...  So this is a good example, right? One of my best friends from high school, when he found out what I do for a living, he's like, do you think that I'm neurodivergent? I'm like, well, buddy, you and I met in the gifted classroom. So by definition, yes, you're neurodivergent. But also like, yeah, you're a very quirky human, right? This is a kid who...

 

09:03

you know who collected Star Wars paraphernalia in every I mean like I don't know if you've ever seen a Star Wars poster in Mandarin but he has one right like it's a super nerdy thing he's like well where did I get that from I was like have you met your dad the guy with aim this is this is a true fact 1372 bassoons the guy collected the soons you know these that's not a small instrument they're not harmonicas right so like I was like

 

09:32

You your his dad was also a brilliant coder at 18 t like and who was also a world class musician. So like this is a brilliant family. They're a quirky family. Like it's the sort of thing if you trace it back, you're like,  oh, right. Grandpa like had six pence, but also was a mail carrier. And like my aunt was, you know, a professional tap dancer  and then wrote three cookbooks like, you know, not all neurodivergence is intellectual by nature.

 

10:02

A lot of it can be skill set talent driven. But you know, if you've got that weird quirky person in your family, there's neurodivergence in your family. Do you still see a big difference in like generationally speaking, like people in their forties and fifties sort of like putting it together for the first time and sort of like, oh my gosh, like,  is this something about me versus like, you know, the 11 year old who's reaching out to you.

 

10:29

you know, in that generation, there's a lot more education about it, perhaps  a lot more acceptance of it and things like that. Well, and then that 11 year old, when they reach out, I meet their parents and I'm like, Oh, there's the neurodivergent parent. Like we actually call it apple tree syndrome, right? Because I cannot tell you how many times they do a full IQ workup on a kid. And then I'm doing the feedback session parents like, you know, I was wondering about myself. like, were you now?

 

10:57

Because you're doing a Rubik's Cube while you're talking to me.  That is a vintage Dragon Ball Z hoodie. I guess I feel like you're one of my people. And that's really cool because the generation  that is the grownups of the kids I see just missed the mental health revolution, right? They just missed it. So they have like  more knowledge than the generation before them, but not they weren't as empowered as the generation that came after them.  Right. So they're sort of

 

11:27

the worst of both worlds. But I mean, you you can only just meet people where they are. So a lot of times I'll end up doing a follow-up assessment with a parent  and you know, their neurodivergence may look different, but it's clearly like, this is a person with a different brain who gave birth to kids with different brains. And how cool is that? Yeah, absolutely. And  the neurodiversity playbook, the book that you wrote, you know, who, who is that intended for and what is that?

 

11:56

You know, uh, good resource for. Well, yeah. I mean, you're going to laugh. So when we were putting together our pitch deck for this, uh, my editor was like, so who's this book for? And I was like, well, this book is for anybody who is neurodivergent. Works with someone who's neurodivergent or loves someone who's neurodivergent. And she was like, I love that. And she's like, wait, that's everyone. I'm like, so I mean,

 

12:23

four out of five people are neurotypical, which means one out of five people are neurodivergent. So this isn't some rare, extreme illness that no one ever sees in their life. Like think about your four best friends. If one of them is an ADHD, OCD, gifted or autistic, then it's probably you, right? I mean, that's the, you know, and that's not actually how statistics work, but it's, it's a funny little bumper, but I mean, that's the idea is that this isn't everybody thing.

 

12:53

Right.  And  when we approach  these conversations from a place of this is a brain difference, not a you're lazy, you're entitled, you watch too much TikTok. This is somehow screens fault or too much sugar. Like your brain is different and your brain allows you to having strengths that other people don't have and weaknesses other people don't have. The more we accommodate that, the better you do. And the more you can be a part of whatever communities you want to be a part of.

 

13:23

Yeah, that's great. And  starting with that  self-compassion, self-acceptance, you know, it's huge. And then also  for the people who are close to that person, you know, and we could start talking about the relationship kind of stuff. But I mean, it's a big difference if you feel like that person is being intentional about, you know, certain behaviors that they're doing that are negatively impacting the relationship versus, no, this is just...

 

13:50

something that I can have compassion for about this person and we can look at it in a different way and maybe work together in a different way. Yeah. All of the self stuff that we do for a living, like self knowledge, self empowerment, self compassion, it all comes with knowledge, right? I always say like knowledge, knowledge is power, but it also knowledge is empowerment. The more I know about myself, the more I can put myself in positions to be successful. Like, you know, like to

 

14:19

You know, to think about my own self like, you know, when I was in my twenties and single, like, you know, people went to clubs. That was a thing people did in the aughts and early teens. Like, but as a gifted ADHD or who has some pretty significant sensory needs, clubs are a nightmare for me. They're dark. They're allowed. They're weirdly bright. You have to wait 45 minutes to get a $20 cocktail. That's like, and what little game I have.

 

14:48

like doesn't work like in the, I have to be able to like chat to somebody and like, like be playful and wordy and stuff like that. It doesn't really work when you're screaming over trying to be heard over pit bull, right? It's just not a, so like, was like, I'm going to pivot into  scenes that feel better for me. So like going to breweries, like going to game nights, that was, I was much more successful dating in those scenes that I were like,

 

15:15

You know, like just dragging myself to some awful club in West Philly at 2 a.m. because things you did in your  20s, right? But that came from a place of knowledge of like, why do I feel drained and exhausted after these things in addition to going home alone, which I didn't want to do? Right. I realized like my brain and body were telling me things that those environments didn't work for me. Right. So if you could, if you can  use that knowledge to say

 

15:44

this isn't working, what could work, then you're going to put yourself in a more successful environment for whatever it is you're trying to do from getting a better job to being a better parent to finding a partner. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I feel like thinking about relationships, there are a few different dynamics, a few different ways that this could unfold. Somebody could know this about themselves from a very young age and

 

16:09

It's something that's being communicated possibly from the very first date that this is part of who I am. This is, you know, and that there's the knowledge of that going into the starting the relationship. The other way I'm thinking about it is that  someone starts a relationship, they get a few months into it and there begins to be this sort of  or new understanding about the person which is like, wait, maybe there's something going on here  and it hasn't been.

 

16:39

discovered before diagnosed before anything like that. And that's the thing. It's like  so often it's the

 

16:47

It's the thing you didn't know you didn't know,  but once you know it, it explains so much. Like Shane, have you ever struggled with imposter syndrome? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,  That's it. Right.  Yeah. But the first I get to give all these different talks, right. And then I do two talks that make people cry. One of them is perfectionism and one of them is imposter syndrome and imposter syndrome. It's that like people didn't know there was a word for it.

 

17:16

They didn't know  that this pain they're dragging along with them, the suffer and silence thing, not only has a term for it, but it has like pretty good therapeutic protocols for it. So like when you tell people that, right, you get to name it, to tame it. Now you know that that's your imposter syndrome. It isn't something wrong with you, right? The context piece is so key because if you guys like, how come like I'm colorblind, for instance, like,  we just had St. Patrick's day, like,

 

17:46

I'm never more aware of my color blindness than on St. Patty's because I'm like, what is green? Like what?  What is that? I'm not. I can't see that color. So  my kids come down by. was like trying out of like, damn it.  What did do? It's like green and blue. She's like blue and gray. I'm like  so close. So like, but if I didn't know I was color blind, I would just think I was an idiot. Right, right. Your partner's neurodivergent and you're trying to have a conversation with them.

 

18:14

and they're having trouble focusing, trouble making eye contact with you. You're like, my partner doesn't give a shit about me. My partner doesn't care. Right. Cause in the absence of information, we created our own narratives and those narratives tend to be more catastrophic. So, you know, I mean, it really is, you use the knowledge to  center the thing that it's never  us versus our partner. It's us and our partner versus the problem. And that's, that's a much healthier way to move forward.

 

18:45

If there are couples therapists who are working with people and there hasn't been any discussion of neurodiversity from the partners,  but  the therapist is suspecting something like that. I mean, are there questions or ways that they can sort of check out, you know, if that might be part of what's going on? There are a lot of great books and great podcasts on this. mean, I certainly think my book's pretty good, um,  right. And if I didn't think so, but there are,

 

19:14

There's a lot of great books out there.  know, Normal Sucks by Jonathan Mooney is probably a classic. Anything by Emily Kertcher Morris, Scott Barry Kaufman  writes from the neurodivergent lens. mean, but  the idea here is the more you know about yourself, the more you can have healthier conversations. And a lot of therapists, I think, sort of backdoor their way into neurodivergent conversations by talking about sensory needs.

 

19:43

Right? So I don't do a lot of couples counseling, but it comes up every once in a while. One of the couples I see, you know, is a heterosexual couple. You know, they're both cisgender. And the guy was like, well, you know what? Early in our relationship, she used to wear lots of lingerie. She used to wear like the frilly things with like the, you know, the lace. And he's like, I love that. And I miss that. And, you know, the, the wife in this case was my client. And she was like,

 

20:12

She looks at me and I nodded at her and she's like, well, part of my neurodivergence is that I have pretty significant sensory needs and like the lace and such is actually like super itchy and uncomfortable on my skin. He's like, he did the guy. like, the more reason to take it off and like obligatory laugh. And like she's like, but I can't feel sexy when I feel uncomfortable in my body. Right. Those things are counter indicated.  And so she's like, so I want to wear just like regular

 

20:42

underwear because then I feel good in my body and then I want to have sex with you. Right. So what he was reading as she doesn't care or she stopped trying was this thing that I used to do. keep my body doesn't let me do anymore and I need to do something different. So in the absence of that knowledge, right, he was making a reasonable interpretation of her behavior, but an interpretation that was driving a wedge between them.

 

21:12

right? Not not bringing them together. Now,  like turns out there are companies that make sensory friendly lingerie, right? And they've sort of explored that together. And, you know, I think that's really neat that that those things exist. And, you know, but like the sensory stuff that we have is cut like things that are too loud, like loud chewing,  or, you I don't like the way you wash my shirts, you know, like, oh, my god, bedtime, like

 

21:39

I'm too hot. I'm too cold. Do you need blankets? We don't have enough blankets. We need to have white noise machines. All of those things are sensory needs and sensory differences are often a symptom of neurodivergence. So then that can sort of, you know, downstream that conversation. Yeah. And I love the way you're saying that because really we can just break it down at that point into the specific, you know, understanding my partner, you know, even though there might be some assumptions we can, or,

 

22:07

or more compassion we can bring  if we're defining it as neurodivergence. I mean, it's still the same kind of conversations that any couple should have really about like, this is what works for me. This is what doesn't work for me. This is how I feel about these particular things. And being able to share that, being able to be open about that, being able to listen to each other and try to work with each other on that. mean, like communication is going to save the world, right?  But

 

22:36

communication is also really hard. requires you to be vulnerable.  I mean, I think so many of us feel so overwhelmed and overloaded that our brains are like, I can't possibly think about what this would be like for me to have this hard conversation right now. So it's easier to just withdraw,  know,  shut down,  you know, focus on something else. And like, I get it, but it's also, like, it's not gonna...

 

23:05

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23:35

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24:03

visit helloalma.com backslash ATP or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Is there anything  else you you feel like we should be talking about? You know, when we're, I sort of  started asking a lot of questions about relationship stuff, but just getting back to the neurodivergence in general or neurodiversity, you know,  is there anything else that you feel like people should know that  people aren't talking about enough?

 

24:32

And I think this bridges the gap nicely, right? Like if you have a neurodivergent person in your life, one of the best things you can do is take the word word should out of your vocabulary,  right? You should have done this. You should know better. You should not have done this. Replace the word should with could, right? Because when we replace the word should would could we move from furious to curious?

 

25:01

You're listening to this podcast and you've got a 13 year old ADHD or at home who doesn't do their homework sometimes. You should have turned that in. Well, they could have turned it in, right? What got in their way? Putting a could in there makes us curious. It's like, well, what got in the way? It's like, well, I just forgot. Okay. How do we keep you from forgetting rather than like, you should do this because then the kid feels shame and blame. They get defensive and defensive people are harder to change.

 

25:30

Right? If you send your partner to the grocery store to get eggs, milk, bread, apples, bananas, and Kiwis, and they bring everything home with the Kiwis, you know, you should have gotten the Kiwis, right? Then your partner is going to feel defensive and like, fine, then you go to the damn store and now you're going to fight over some freaking Kiwis, right? So it's like, okay, hold on a second. You could have gotten the Kiwis. I can see on your face you meant to. Let's assume positive attention here.

 

25:57

what got in the way and it's like the grocery store is really overwhelming. I'm really sorry. I forgot to do that. I can either run back to the store now  or we could figure out if we need something else.  And you know, and then we think, do we put in like, do we, do we send a list? Do we use a checkoff thing on the phone? Like there's a lot of ways to accommodate that need, right?  But  when you're beating somebody up for a thing that their brain doesn't let them do,

 

26:28

It makes that relationship more difficult and it makes change that much harder, you know, and there's a lot of stuff out here like. You know, autistic kids get this idea. It's like, well, you should just try to be normal. Any of the HD years you get this. Well, you should just try and pay attention  and dyslexic kids. Well, you should just try harder to read. And that's why I ground so much of my work in neuroscience, because it's like these aren't  won'ts.  They're can'ts. This is a thing where like.

 

26:57

Like trust me, there are times where I desperately want to be paying attention and my brain's like,  I'm going to go on walkabout and it's just like, God, like you will see me like gritting my teeth, white knuckling through a conversation because I know my brain is going to wander off. It's like, have you ever seen, um, memento? Oh yeah. That's a great movie. Yeah. Christopher Nolan's first movie. And like, there's that's like, if you've not seen the movie, he's got no short-term memory. Right? So

 

27:27

like his life resets every like 90 seconds or so. And like one of the characters in the movie that you think is a good guy reveals that she's a bad guy and then leaves and she's like, you're not going to remember this conversation. And this guy is desperately running around the apartment trying to find a pen to write it down. He's like, I got to find a pen, got to find a pen, got to find a pen. She comes in and she's like, oh my God, you won't believe what happened. And he just immediately switches to the new story because he couldn't remember. It's not that he chose not to remember, it's that he couldn't.

 

27:57

Right? So that's my, you know, that's the thing. It's like, this is literally a brain difference and the brain doesn't let us do these things. But then I tell my clients neurodivergence is always context. It's never an excuse. Right? So you don't get to be an asshole to your partner because you're autistic. Right? Like you, it's like, that's just not how that works. It might be harder for you to not be a blunt direct communicator.

 

28:26

But that doesn't mean you don't get to try because you have to try, right? One of the couples I work with, like, you know, he's ADHD. She's more on the autism spectrum. He loves concerts and sports games, and that's her nightmare. And like, so they  they work really hard to negotiate, like, what part of this can we do and what they've come to? And I actually think it's kind of brilliant is they go, they tailgate together with their friends.

 

28:55

She stays in the parking lot and she watches the game on her phone. He goes into the game with his buddies. They cheer, yell, stop. She gets to sit outside where she's safe and she feels regulated. And she has a ticket if she ever wants to go into the game. It's like a win-win for them, right? But instead of defaulting into, this is what neurotypical people do. They're like, what works for us based on our strengths and weaknesses? And it's, you know, they're healthier for it.

 

29:24

Yeah,  and you mentioned  perfectionism earlier on, you know, and I feel like this it's sort of like fostering the opposite of perfectionism, right? Like, let's not like build a set of rules that we think is the right way of living or the right way of being in a relationship, right? Like, we have to go into the sports game together or something like that. Like, let's try to be flexible and try to be like, you know, problem solving about what can work for for both of us in these situations.

 

29:54

I mean, absolutely right. And this is one of those terms that when I say it, lot of people go,  Oh, so a lot of us are struggling with what I call secret rules.  Right? Like that.  They still everybody was like, yes. And people even realize they have them sometimes.  Oh my God. Right. Like I had no idea how much I had internalized Valentine's Day until I started dating my wife. Like the Valentine's Day has to be perfect. It has to be great. And she's like,

 

30:23

We are in grad school, we have $7 to wear names. You cannot buy me a diamond necklace. I was like, but Valentine's Day, like it's a secret rule. Like I have to do this well, right? I have to be the perfect partner or, know, I can't tell you how many people are like, well, I read in a journal that healthy couples have sex three times a week. So we need to have sex three times a week. My honey child, my sweet baby, let me hug you. Like  that is like.

 

30:50

That is awesome. If you're having sex three times a week, go with God, right? But if that is not possible for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that like maybe your partner has a stomach virus. Do you really want to have sex with someone who has a stomach virus? I don't think I do, right? And so it's just like when you can challenge those rules in a gentle,  intentional way, people realize that like they become these weird

 

31:18

like guardrails in our lives that we don't actually need. Like maybe it's a healthier way to think about it. It's like, let's have sex as much as we'd like to, knowing that we'll ebb and flow as the year goes on. Let's do some stuff together. Like one of those other secret rules, couples do things together, right? I don't do everything with my wife. My wife doesn't do everything with me. She loves,  you know, up here in Northern New Jersey, we have this big rummage sale.

 

31:43

It's like a high holiday for my wife's family. Like they plan their weekends around it. It's not really my thing, Shane.  Like, you know, you know,  I go I bring my kids, but we take two cars. And when my kids are done, I leave with them. We go back to the house. My wife stays for four more hours. Right? Awesome. Cool. Right?  Get rid of those secret rules. And then you realize like, you aren't jamming your square peg into a round hole, and you'll be just so much happier for it.

 

32:14

Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And that's such a good example. You know, if you make up that rule, like, you know, couples have to be together all the time. It doesn't allow for a lot of flexibility about like, how do we work together? How do we create, you know, we, get the opportunity to create the meaning we want, right? Like you taking the kids away from that is a really healthy thing for the relationship and for everybody involved in everybody. It's a win-win and it's, you know, you get to create the, meaning that like,

 

32:43

you know, sometimes sometimes love means like helping each other out in this way,  which is really cool.  And I appreciate I appreciate  something you said a few minutes ago, which is that not to use any sort of diagnosis or something as an excuse for  something that feels mean to the other person, right? Like, you know, like just because  you might be struggling with some of these,  you know, let's say a communication thing.

 

33:12

That doesn't mean like you can keep calling your partner a jerk all the time. If, if, you know, that's something that's really hurtful to them, but talk a little bit more about that as far as like,  how, do, how do we make sense of that? Or how do we communicate that with each other? So couples can feel both like validated about things they might be struggling with. So  one thing that a lot of neurodivergent people struggle with is perspective taking, right? So the idea of theory of mind, right? That like,

 

33:42

You know you are a different person than me Shane. You have different strengths and weaknesses and likes and dislikes like we could make some assumptions based on like what we both look like and what we do for a living right? But we know we also might be very different people in some ways like you know  I I often joke like I'm a white guy with with a beard. Why yes, I do enjoy craft beer. Thank you very much for asking right? It's one of my favorite things now for all I know  you don't drink right? I I have no idea whether you do or not.

 

34:12

But if I assume that because I like craft beer, you must  like craft beer, then I'm setting an expectation that you never opted into  and my subsequent interactions with you will be tainted based on things. Like  I invited Shane over for a beer and he said, no, what a jerk. I thought he was my friend. And it's like, did you ever ask  if Shane likes beer? You know?

 

34:37

And it's the sort of thing like our thoughts come so fast and fierce and they're so emotionally laden that the idea of. Well, I like this so other people must like this too clearly and then if they don't they're wrong. I mean it just it sets all these unnecessary mine mine fields in our relationships. You know when I speak at conferences and I speak a lot of gifted conferences. This is.

 

35:03

You know, it's a pretty safe question to ask. I'm like, I asked him like 500 people. I'm like, all right, anybody in this room like Star Wars? They all raise their hands because Susan love Star Wars. I'm like, all right, what's the best Star Wars movie? Right now, Shane, do you have a opinion? The best Star Wars movie? I would say the Return of the Jedi is my favorite. That's solid choice. I personally like Empire Strikes Back. That's my personal favorite. But a person who hasn't thought about perspective taking hasn't built those skills.

 

35:33

Is big? No, we disagree. Right, you're wrong. Shane  that but it's like first off, that's definitely the second best movie  and it's the original trilogy. There's lots that we could connect on and talk about right when we  lose the forest for the trees when we cannot perspective take with our with our with our partners. You know, I do all the cooking in our house and I enjoy spicy food.  My level of tolerable spice is astronomical.

 

36:02

My wife's is tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. So like when I would cook for her early in our relationship, I'd be like, oh, a little red pepper, little chili powder, dice up some jalapenos in there. Like, my wife would be like, I love when you cook for me, but I'm dying. And so now I just cook food and then I season it myself, right? If I was like, no, spicy food is better. You should eat the spicy food that I'm driving a wedge between us and unnecessary wedge.

 

36:32

And I see this with parents a lot and it's almost always the dads. They're like, Oh, I played football in high school. My kid should play football. I'm like, your kid is five foot six  and 103 pounds. Your kid is a, is a goalpost,  not a football player.  Right. But your kid loves LARPing or your kid loves  archery or musical theater  or geocaching. And like those things, yes, they are not objectively cool as football. They're not the monoculture.

 

37:01

But there are absolutely cool people in marching band and chess club and Pokemon Go. You know, I have a kid I work with who's an internationally ranked video game player in his particular game. And when he goes to these tournaments, he's a rock star, they have security for him. Like,  and it's the sort of thing like, yeah, he's not big man on campus. He doesn't throw the letterman jacket over his shoulder, right? But

 

37:27

He's like, honestly, like all the high school kids are like, Oh, these shooters. He's like, I have professional models who are like, can I take a picture with you? He's like, ha ha ha. He's the biggest nerd in the world.  He's like so uncomfortable,  but like that's the thing. It's like, you know, our perspective is valid, but it's just as valid as everybody else's. Yeah, that's great. Well, and I think that it comes back to that.

 

37:54

ability to, you know, like you said, to be understanding with people who are different, to be flexible, you know, to be curious,  and,  you know, which are all just really helpful things in any relationship. But I think it might be, you know, there might be some specifics that play out in neurodivergent relationships that people can be really mindful of. That's great. Yeah. Any other, you know, I know we're getting close to the end of time, but any other final thoughts before we start to wrap it up?

 

38:25

Well, and this might be a silly thing to say on this podcast, but like, it's hard to do this stuff.

 

38:37

alone. It's hard to do this a couple, just the two of you because you have jobs, you may have children, you have families and friends and interests and it's hard to do this work alone. The thing that I find most helpful about therapy and I see my own therapist is that it's an hour of a week that I set aside for me. Like whether I want to talk shop or bitch and moan or

 

39:02

you know, or talk about like my deepest fears or childhood trauma. It's an hour I get to do that. And if you set that hour aside for your cup, for your relationship, for the coupleness that you're in, like then you're, you're farming off the most important work to someone who is skilled and trained to help you do it. I think what a lot of people struggle with is they're like, well, I know what the problem is. I don't know how to fix it, but I don't have the skills or time or energy to fix it.

 

39:32

We're absolutely right. But this is where you find someone who knows more than you do, right? That's the next step in that process, right? And I think that is a, I talked to a lot of parents who were like, I think I've gone as far as I can in my parenting journey on my skills. I'm like, that's when you call me, right? You call me and I'll take you to the next level. And whether that takes six months or six years, I'll do it. I'll be there with you. So like, you know, what you do, what I do, what our colleagues do, like, you know, it's just like,

 

40:01

If listening to this episode like, Oh my gosh, that's me or my partner or my partners. Holy crap. Like what do I do now? Find someone who does this work and they'll help you take those next steps. You don't have to do it alone. Yeah, that's great. And hopefully, you know, you would find someone who's good at what they do. But I mean, even like, like, you know, if you don't have that time, you know, setting aside that specific time is so valuable just in and of itself because

 

40:30

You know, I know if I'm not going to therapy or couples therapy in my life, like I'm not even setting aside half that much time just to have a focused conversation with my partner, you know, about what's going on, which  when you start to make that a  priority and, um, you know, commit to that, I think it's super helpful for, for yourself as an individual and in your relationship for sure. Yeah, that's great. Thank you.  And, before, before we go, can you mention your

 

40:59

If people want to learn more about the things we're talking about here today, just mention your website and your book and where people can find you. have two primary jobs, so I have two websites. Our therapy practice is the NeurodiversityCollective.com and that's where we see our clients. We're 95 % virtual, so we can see you from basically anywhere in the country. And then if what I'm talking about makes sense for your organization, whether you're a college or a company,

 

41:29

then that's drmattzarkresky.com. And if you end up at one, then you should be at the other, will still help you, I promise. And my book is the Neurodiversity Playbook.  It's available on Amazon and also on my website. And I think it's  really helpful.  I think my gift is to take these sort of complex concepts and distill them into something that's accessible for people. So, I mean, it's got lots of pop culture references. It's got lots of random asides.

 

41:57

It's got some funny graphics in there. It's tangible and I wrote it to be usable by anybody. And thankfully that's the feedback we've gotten so far. It's like, I didn't think this book would make as much sense as it did. And it did. And I've been able to use it. And that's why I wrote it. Right. I I called it the playbook for a reason. Like I want it to be something that you can flip to and say, here's the thing I need to do for this part of my life. I've got a resource that helps me get there. Yeah. That's great.

 

42:24

That's great. Well, thank you so much. I'll put that in the show notes. Hopefully you and I can catch up again at some point in the future. Yeah. Thank you again so much for coming on. Uh, this has been super helpful.  I had a blast. You're a great host. Thank you for carving out the space to talk about the stuff in this area because it's, it's so neat. I think this is going to help a lot of people. I agree. I agree. I think it is so more and more, you know, in the relationship space, I think people need to understand this stuff. So

 

42:53

Thank you so much for leading the way on that. Well, it's my pleasure. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch.

 

43:20

podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time.  Bye everybody.